A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Blog post by koki on Thu, 2008-04-17 23:00
Scott at the Haiku boothScott at the Haiku booth

I spent this past weekend in San Francisco in order to attend the LugRadio Live USA 2008 event. Together with Scott McCreary (of BeDrivers.com fame), we organized a Haiku booth to represent the project at this the first LugRadio Live event to be held in the US. This event was a bit of a mystery to me, in the sense that I did not know what to expect. It certainly turned out to be an interesting and fruitful experience, not only because of the usual increased visibility that results from having a booth at any open source event, but also because it gave us the chance to get to know and network with quite a few interesting individuals.

I drove into San Francisco on Friday afternoon, as I wanted to check out the exhibit floor at the Metreon and also see if I could setup our projector screen in our booth in advance. We were originally told that there would be a "no hanging stuff from the wall" policy, but it turned out that it was OK for us to hang the projector screen from the tube holding the backwall drapes behind our booth. And that's exactly what I did: with the kind help of one of the on-site crew and a couple of plastic cable straps that I had brought in my show box, I had the screen setup in no time. I spoke with the on-site staff about wireless access, and got all the info that I needed to get my ethernet-wifi adaptor working, so that we could have internet access from Haiku. Once I had the plan for the next day more or less clear in my head, I called it a day, and went back to my hotel room to relax until dinner time.

On Saturday morning I woke up at around 7:00AM (much earlier than my usual, I must say), as I wanted to be on the exhibit floor at around the time they opened it for booth setup (which was from 8:00AM). Scott, who was driving in from Marine County (north of the Golden Gate bridge), called me around at 8:00 to tell me that he was on his way. We eventually met directly at the Haiku booth on the exhibit floor a bit before 8:30, and started setting up our gear. I had brought with me my laptop, an HP Pavilion zv5400 w/1GB RAM and an AMD/64 Athlon (that insists on running at only 800MHz in Haiku), which we hooked up to a projector. Scott brought a small form factor Dell desktop computer with a 2GHz Intel processor and 256MB of RAM, which we hooked up to a 17 inch LCD screen. Both computers were then connected to a Buffalo WLI-TX4-G54HP wifi-ethernet adaptor, which I had already configured to use the free access point available for the exhibitors. Additionally, we set on the table Haiku handout flyers, as well as a donation box (we received the amazing amount of $26 in donations!!). No t-shirts this time, as selling stuff was not allowed this time.

Having a chat with the FreeBSD/KDE guysHaving a chat with the FreeBSD/KDE guys

The site opened to the public at 10:00AM, but there were not that many people coming in until a bit later in the morning. Our booth was located all the way in the back of the exhibit floor, right in front of the main stage. Next to us was Linux Pro magazine, and we had Ubuntu, FreeBSD, KDE and O'Reilly in the same area. There were a couple of known faces, btw; a young couple that had attended the Linux Picnic last August and who "starred" in our FalterCon video of that event were at the KDE booth across the aisle.

Next to them was FreeBSD, which interestingly had a full size backwall with a KDE desktop printed on it showing, among other things, an IRC session (in Kopete) where a noob asked "what is FreeBSD" and freebsdgirl replied "FreeBSD is a superior server operating system..." (leaving out the rest on purpose). I thought this was quite telling of the real focus of the BSDs, as reading this commentary about the recent annual Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit brought the same kind of thoughts about Linux on the desktop. I somehow feel that our focus on personal computing still gives us, even after all this time, an edge over the other open source operating systems, as our decisions cannot be influenced or compromised nor our goals can be changed by any server oriented agenda. Anyway, I am getting a bit off-topic here. :)

Talking with the owners of a BeBoxTalking with the owners of a BeBox

Traffic picked up quite a bit towards noon and during the rest of the afternoon. Scott and I repeated our quick show-and-tell introduction to Haiku, and the occasional more in depth demo to those who were interested enough to spend 5-10 minutes at the booth. As usual, live queries still rank high in the demos that draw the most "oh, that's cool!" comments, but some were also positively surprised to see applications like Firefox and VLC running in Haiku as well. A few of the visitors to our booth were very familiar with BeOS, including one person who had actually done development in BeOS in the past; we were also visited by a young couple who not only were very familiar with BeOS and Haiku, but also the proud owners of a BeBox. :) Interestingly, this was the first time, after representing Haiku at several conferences over the past year or so (mostly in the US, one in Japan), that I got the dreaded "why don't you just help with Linux instead?" question. I tried to explain the guy, but he was obviously not interested at all, and simply walked away before I could finish my first sentence. Oh well... :/

As the first day came to a conclusion, at around 6:00PM, we packed all our booth gear and went back to the hotel to rest for a while before dinner. Scott and I reunited at the lobby at around 7:30PM, and decided to have dinner at the Italian restaurant located in the same building as the hotel. The food was good, and we had an interesting conversation with a couple sitting next to us; she was from Honduras, he was from El Salvador), so the conversation was half in English, half in Spanish. After dinner, we headed back to the Metreon, as Google was holding a free bar gathering for all LugRadio Live speakers/exhibitors at Jillian's. Scott and I spent some time with Gareth from SCaLE, who told us a great story of how SCaLE had become the successful event that it is today (my favorite open source event, by the way; they have the right balance of community and business, and it's extremely well organized). We also met with Kyle of the NBLUG, and this brings me to my next point: networking.

As I had mentioned earlier, LugRadio turned out to be a good place for networking with various interesting people. For instance, on Friday evening I met with Leslie Hawthorn, the person at Google who pretty much runs the Google Summer of Code; not only did I introduce myself, but I also told her how great their program was, and what a great job she did; hopefully that will get us an extra student slot (just kidding). ;) On Saturday morning, David Maxwell of Coverity came to our booth; David was specifically interested in adding Haiku to their impressive list of projects that support the Coverity code analisys tool (follow up here). Perhaps in a strike of good luck, the booth next to ours was occupied by Linux Pro magazine which, as it turned out, was "manned" (so to speak) by Managing Editor Rikki Kite; being marketing communications my field, I did not miss the chance and spoke with her about pursuing a full an article about Haiku in their magazine, to which she was receptive. I got her contact information and now need to follow up; we'll see how this pans out. During the Saturday night gathering at Jillian's, Scott introduced me to Kyle Rankin from the North Bay Linux Users Group (NBLUG); this user group meets regularly at O'Reilly Media's headquarters in Sebastopol, Marin County (north of San Francisco), and they invite speakers to talk about various topics. We proposed Kyle the idea of giving a talk about Haiku at one of their meetings, and he liked it; so we are going to plan for a Haiku presentation on either their June or July meeting. Last but not least, I had a nice chat with Marsee from O'Reilly; as some of you may already know, O'Reilly organizes many open source conferences in the US (including, for instance, RailsConf). One of the biggest (if not the biggest) conferences organized by O'Reilly is OSCON, which is scheduled to be held on July 21 - 25 in Portland, Oregon. I have already followed up with a colleague of Marsee at O'Reilly, and if we can get a group of 2-3 people to help out, we will apply for a Haiku booth at OSCON; if you are interested in attending or helping out, please see related invitation here or contact me directly.

Sunday had a very slow start. Scott and I came to the exhibit floor at around 9:15 for booth setup and were ready to roll before open time (it's easier when you already know where everything goes). However, not that many people showed up until almost noon. I took the opportunity to walk around and check out some of the other booths, and gather handouts from here and there (mostly live CDs, and a couple of toys for my granddaughter). Scott went to see a couple of talks while I stayed at the booth. Later in the day, I had one special mission left for that afternoon: I knew David "Lefty" Schlesinger, Director of Open Source Technologies at ACCESS Co., was giving a talk at LugRadio, and I wanted to meet him in person. David helped us get the BeBook and the Be Newsletters released, so I wanted to thank him personally for his support and hand him a Haiku t-shirt as a small token of our appreciation. I finally located David at around 3:30PM close to the stage where he was going to give his talk later that day, and he is now another proud owner of a Haiku t-shirt. :)

On a side note, one of the sponsors of LugRadio Live, Dice.com, was giving away four ASUS eeePC computers during the event (two per day). In the hope that I could get lucky and get one of this nice UMPCs for Haiku, I entered the draw by writing my name and email address on the back of the drink tickets that were being handed out. Unfortunately, luck was not on my side this time, so it looks like we will have to look elsewhere. We really should contact ASUS and see if they are willing to donate a couple of eeePCs for Axel and Francois to get Haiku running on them.

This event is supposed to be centered around the theme a LugRadio, a radio show (podcast) that "takes a relaxed, humorous look at Linux and open source" (copy and paste from the LugRadio website). So while still open source related, this event had a slightly different flavor from, say, SCaLE or other open source conferences that I have been to in the past. Having a Haiku booth was definitely worthwhile, but I did come out with the impression that, at least from the standpoint of having exhibits, two days was a bit overkill for the not so impressive amount of people that walked the exhibit floor (particularly on Sunday). Of course, as those of us in the business of exhibiting at shows usually say, "it only takes one" (good new customer) to justify the effort and investment. In the end, I think that we contributed to the goal of raising awareness of the project and educating people about Haiku; I also think that with our presence we also helped put a face and give a human touch to the project, which I believe is important as well. Add to that the opportunities to connect with various people in the open source scene and beyond, and I would say with confidence that attending LugRadio was definitely a positive experience for Haiku.

In closing this informal report, I would really like to give special thanks to Scott for dedicating the whole weekend to Haiku. To be honest, I would not have done this without his commitment and help. Moreover, Scott was generous enough to donate to Haiku the Dell PC that he brought with him. Maybe it's time that I design and put together a Haiku show box. Thanks Scott!

Photos, videos and other miscellaneous

Comments

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Great writeup!

Quote:

"why don't you just help with Linux instead?"

Yes, a tough one. Perhaps we should collectively come up with a reasonably convincing answer to that. I'm thinking something along the lines of "clear and focused goal" would be one of the primary reasons not to jump on the Linux bandwagon. Along with "relatively bloat/cruft-free bottom-up OS design" (which feeds back into the previous point).

We did have at least one or two guys at the Linux picnic last year corner us with the same question. I think Bryan started explaining his opinion on that matter and the guy clearly lost interest and wandered off in a similar fashion.

As for the donated Dell PC - what sort of RAM does it use and how many slots does it have? I might have a couple sticks of DDR memory lying around that I can donate also if that's what it needs.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

umccullough wrote:
Quote:

"why don't you just help with Linux instead?"

Yes, a tough one. Perhaps we should collectively come up with a reasonably convincing answer to that. I'm thinking something along the lines of "clear and focused goal" would be one of the primary reasons not to jump on the Linux bandwagon. Along with "relatively bloat/cruft-free bottom-up OS design" (which feeds back into the previous point).

We did have at least one or two guys at the Linux picnic last year corner us with the same question. I think Bryan started explaining his opinion on that matter and the guy clearly lost interest and wandered off in a similar fashion.

Actually, it's not that tough. Many people don't make the question so bluntly, but you can tell from their faces that they do wonder why in the world we are doing this. These people usually are willing to listen, and in the end they usually see our logic regardless of whether they agree or disagree with our goals. The problem with this guy was that he only had ears to what he wanted to hear; so the moment that I tried to explain our reasoning, he just walked away. This has never happened to me before.

umccullough wrote:

As for the donated Dell PC - what sort of RAM does it use and how many slots does it have? I might have a couple sticks of DDR memory lying around that I can donate also if that's what it needs.

It has two slots populated with 128MB DDR PC2100 CL2.5 memory modules. Haiku was very stable on this machine, but it would definitely be nice if we could increase the memory up to 512MB; it would help run Firefox more comfortably.

BTW, this one will go your way before LW. :)

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Quote:

It has two slots populated with 128MB DDR PC2100 CL2.5 memory modules. Haiku was very stable on this machine, but it would definitely be nice if we could increase the memory up to 512MB;

Yes, I think I do have a couple of spare 512mb DDR DIMMs lying around possibly - for a total of 1GB at least :)

Quote:

BTW, this one will go your way before LW. :)

I guess better start clearing a spot in my closet for that (and whatever other stuff)... I also have a small formfactor Dell of my own that I had planned to bring with me to LW.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Actually only having 256Meg in there seemed to impress a few people, as it actually ran quite nicely, but yes having more would help out with Firefox and other such programs.

One of the sessions I caught was Kristen Accardi's “How to write a device driver in 30 minutes” talk. She and another woman, who's name I didn't catch, gave a talk on writing driver's, starting with template code from a generic linux driver. While Kristen described the step's, the other woman typed away, I think using emacs. I missed the first 5-10 minutes of this one so didn't fully understand the story, but they were also baking cookies in a toaster oven... They proceeded to bake a couple dozen cookies and write a driver to make an LED PC board that was connected to a parallel port blink a row of LEDs on and off. They sure made writing drivers look easier than I ever pictured it to be.

I also caught a few minutes of Jeremy Allison's talk, which covered some of the history of Samba, including their run-ins with Microsoft and others. Pretty interesting stuff, wish I had seen more of that one.

I met Stewart Smith from MySQL in the elevator on Saturday and mentioned that I was taking an SQL class this semester and he joked about the non-standard SQL standard in which every vendor does things just slightly different.

We also saw Bart Eisenberg who wrote the 8 page Haiku story for the Japanese Software Design magazine. He was there covering the show.

Adam Sweet stopped by and talked with us for 10 minutes or so just before the show opened on Saturday morning. I was able to understand most of what he said, even through his British accent. But when all four of them were on stage later that day, often talking over each I found myself only catching about 25% of what they were saying. I'll probably try to download the podcast and see if I can catch it better the second time through. They have a U.K. show coming up this summer. Might be a chance to show Haiku there as well if there's interest. Included in the $10 entry fee for regular attendees also included a free beer. You could really tell when the beer came out, note the pic of the FreeBSD and KDE guys enjoying a bottle. Thanks to Google, Dice, the LugRadio guys and everyone else involved, it was a fun show.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

We can help by finally letting linux just be itself. It needs to be based on unix and X windows. It needs to have 5 million different ways of doing the same thing and wobbly windows just because it is cool. That's what people like about that system and there's no reason to take that away from them just because there's a desire for an open source OS to take over the rest of the world.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

"why don't you just help with Linux instead?"

1) The same reason why you're not using Windows/OSX ...?
2) Linux is just a kernel - Haiku supplies the entire package (kernel, GUI, API, media, etc) designed specifically for desktop users.
3) Linux is a server centric OS. Haiku is desktop centric.
4) Linux is just too mainstream these days :)

Koki, the section of the article where you discuss FreeBSD IRC chat session has a non-working URL, where you mention this commentary

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

another reason: forking the linux kernel to suit our needs would really tick them off.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

@ picture 7 and 8

I remember that guy from the Picnix '07 / FalterCon video. He seems to be missing his skirt and his gf.

*Edit*

Ok, I read the article, maybe they just switched things up pant-wise.

What, no stikethrough ?

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Thanks for this cool writeup! You guys are doing an awesome job!

As for the "Why not just help Linux" question... the question is both valid and ignorant at the same time. If we actually did "help Linux", whatever we would do would probably be utterly meaningless next to the ten thousand other Linux projects and we would be asked why we are doing project X and not help project Y instead. From a technological POV, there is probably no chance of influencing the main line Linux kernel in the way we would think necessary. We would end up doing our own thing. There is just too many parties interested in the Linux kernel to drag it very far in one direction. Last but not least, I think it is going to be insanely satisfactory to see and use our very own creation. And then we can fix and change and build upon that in a community of people who all value much of the same things in an operating system, within a codebase that we have a chance of overseeing. I think the "complete system" view is really going to give us great power in the long run. Everything from the kernel to the preflets can be made to work together perfectly.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Cheers for the hard work and the write-up guys. I might be interested in doing something Haiku-related for the UK event (which seems to be the established LugRadio event, this was the first US one IIRC).

stippi wrote:

I think the "complete system" view is really going to give us great power in the long run. Everything from the kernel to the preflets can be made to work together perfectly.

Amen to that, definitely my #1 reason for supporting Haiku.

Simon

ps: Exams are getting in the way of my regular activity updates - I'll do another catch-up one in a couple of weeks.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

When Haiku first started, some people thought it would be more successful if it used the linux kernel. Those attempts weren't successful because there was no community for it even though they had a working kernel and lots of drivers. An OS needs a community behind it. That's the difference between Haiku and many of the other alternative OS's you find on osnews.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Here just to say "Thank you guys!" to Jorge and Scott. You do an awesome job spreading the word :)

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Haiku might not be "just helping Linux" directly but it sure helps indirectly. How many open source projects do Haiku people help, promote, or even directly contribute code to? So while it isn't Linux it is definitely friendly towards Linux.

Thanks for the article and taking the time and effort to do the event. Definitely sounds like it was worth the effort in many ways.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Quote:

Haiku might not be "just helping Linux" directly but it sure helps indirectly. How many open source projects do Haiku people help, promote, or even directly contribute code to? So while it isn't Linux it is definitely friendly towards Linux.

This is definitely a valid point - perhaps the way to address the original question is to ask "How isn't Haiku helping Linux?" and take it from there. That should engage the person asking the question and allow *them* to answer their own question first. If they need some help, one could then offer suggestions that Haiku's sources are GPL-friendly (this matters to GPL-nuts) - and that Haiku already uses and offers patches for many of the same tools that Linux distributions depend on.

Haiku offers a vision that Linux desktop distros could embrace and build on if they so-desired. They first have to be willing to admit they need to change anything :)

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Just to make sure that I did not give the wrong impression: the vast majority of the people were very receptive to the ideas behind Haiku and thought what we were doing was cool; it was this this single individual who did not sound very thrilled. :)

One more question that came up quite frequently was that of application availability. We showed off apps like Firefox and VLC as good example of ported apps, but I always try to emphasize on the native apps, because to me, those are the ones that I believe actually have the potential (albeit in the long run) to take full advantage of Haiku and its potential in terms of a better user experience when compared to other OSes; and that is what will actually make the grand effort of creating a new OS worthwhile in the end. In other words, I do recognize the value of multi-platform apps, but personally I feel very strongly that if we are only (or mostly) going to use ported apps already available in other platforms, then there is little value in using Haiku, and the more native apps we can get to the platform, the more Haiku will shine.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Bribe Dane Scott to demo TuneTracker at a show sometime. If you haven't seen TuneTracker doing its magic you're missing out on a killer app that's native to Haiku. I think Haiku is at the point where it will run TuneTracker or at least should be.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Zaranthos wrote:

Bribe Dane Scott to demo TuneTracker at a show sometime. If you haven't seen TuneTracker doing its magic you're missing out on a killer app that's native to Haiku. I think Haiku is at the point where it will run TuneTracker or at least should be.

Scott has actually offered to help us get a TuneTracker system running for demo purposes, or maybe even live broadcast from the conference. Unfortunately, we did not have enough hands to be able to actually make use of this offer. Maybe we should invite Dane to the next WalterCon, so that he does a special live broadcast himself. :)

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

I think it's OK to also show apps that aren't finished yet, more or less as proof that they exist and are being worked on...like for example Haiku's native browser.

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

Looks like guys got a great time over there.
I question about the flyer. Why show the video "Elephants Dream"?

I know it's created partly with Blender which doesn't run on Haiku yet, or?

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

konrad wrote:

I question about the flyer. Why show the video "Elephants Dream"?

I know it's created partly with Blender which doesn't run on Haiku yet, or?

I don't know if Blender runs on Haiku or not; there is an initial port of Blender to Zeta (http://www.bebits.com/app/4235), so I would not be surprised if it is ported to Haiku some day.

With regards to the screenshot, we just chose one that showed Haiku running a few applications that users could relate to (video player, web browsing, terminal, etc.).

Why not?

The reason not many people are asking is that really Haiku needs the Linux kernel a lot more than anyone working on Linux cares about Haiku. Haiku is only 10 years younger than Linux and this is an instructive way to compare not only the kernels, but the whole eco-system surrounding them.

In 1998 most people were running Linux 2.1.x (late unstable kernel series) except those who really needed the reliability of 2.0.x. By this point Linux had SMP support for several years, but 2.1.x included the removal of many uses of the global kernel lock, thus improving scalability with multiple CPUs. It also included included video4linux (drivers for TV cards, video capture devices etc.) and plug-and-play support (but not yet for USB), as well as supporting many more hardware architectures, including Be's own BeBox hardware.

In 1998, among other things, it was revealed that Titanic's CG effects had been rendered using 64-bit Linux machines, a new search engine, called Google and based on Linux hardware appeared; major database vendors (Oracle et al) announced support for Linux as a platform; IBM announced Apache on Linux as a supported platform, Forbes magazine profiled Linus Torvalds.

But also in 1998 - The GIMP 1.0 release happened, version 1.0 of the GNOME and KDE desktops were shipped, a project began to localise Linux for Chinese users and the Mozilla codebase was made Free Software, meaning a modern graphical web browser for inclusion in Free Software products like the major Linux distributions.

By focusing on Linux as a multi-billion dollar server platform (which had barely started in 1998), or a multi-billion dollar embedded platform (which hadn't happened really in 1998, the TiVo and TomTom and other gadgets with Linux inside were yet to come), you can miss the other success story of Linux as the free software desktop platform, which was already well under way.

[If you look at Be's newsletters for 1998, since they're now publically available on the Haiku web site, you'll see just how far adrift JLG was in that year. BeOS as a web server? Linux and Windows "peacefully co-existing"? Unacknowledged GNU code found in the core of BeOS and waved away as a "mistake" ? If I had to pick a year when it became obvious that Be had no future, it'd be 1998. There are also a lot of articles dedicated to the complicated gymnastics needed to get BeOS to come up on an x86 machine. Step 1, which should be familiar to Haiku people a decade later, is to install Linux. It's a bit like that old joke about how you make a small fortune]

Re: Why not?

You seem to be looking at this from a "Can Haiku take over the world?" perspective. As long as enough people care, Haiku will grow and eventually reach it's goals. For me personally, it is not a goal to "take over the world". You make a lot of valid points, but they make only sense with certain pre-assumptions, which cannot necessarily be applied. All we are trying to do at the moment is to re-implement our dream OS in open source form and then take it from there. Even if no one else cares (which doesn't seem to be the case), I will call it a success if I can run it on my machines. This is a pretty big world with a lot of people in it. There is always more people who think similar to yourself and value similar things. So there may be just *enough* people joining our efforts, which makes the thing so much more enjoyable. If it is not for you, that's perfectly fine. I have a lot of respect for what different Linux projects try to achieve and I use some of them myself. Nevertheless, I don't see me starting to code for these projects any time soon, because there is still way too much stuff that doesn't suit my taste. It's not a matter of you're right I am wrong or vice versa. However, your points do not convince me that Haiku is doomed to failure or anything, if that is what you were trying to bring across.

Re: Why not?

"Haiku will grow and eventually reach its goals."

You're making an assumption of your own here, and one that's worth looking at because it has bitten BeOS/ Haiku repeatedly. You assume that the goals are stationary so that any movement, no matter how slow towards them must eventually result in reaching the goals. But in reality most of the goal posts are moving. Haiku has no choice but to adapt to these changing circumstances, and in many cases the result may be a net backwards movement. If you're Microsoft you can spend money to influence these trends, but with a few thousand dollars in the bank and a few dozen volunteers Haiku has to swim with the current, or drown.

[ Be Inc got bitten by this because their business strategy said that they'd compete in a new class of cheap multi-processor workstations. That hardware did arrive, but not until a decade later when Be Inc were already out of business. The goal posts moved ]

When OpenBeOS was announced x86-64 simulators were already publicly available from AMD. Linux had been ported. And the story from OpenBeOS was that it is server hardware and they're making a desktop operating system. So here we are in 2008, everybody and their dog has a laptop with dual-core x86-64 CPU and Haiku runs only in legacy compatibility mode. The goal posts moved.

Talking of laptops - mobility and persistence have become important because now instead of a few business people having laptops, everyone has one and they're using the Internet from a train, or sitting in the garden watching Youtube videos. Ordinary "desktop" users now want, or even need support for 802.11, and GPRS, and associated security and authentication features. They expect closing the laptop to preserve battery life and keep their work safe until they next use it. Will Haiku underline the word "desktop" in its front page blurb and tell such people they're not included because they have laptops? Or will the goal posts move?

Re: Why not?

I understand your points, but I don't understand _why_ you are telling me this. Should I just stop coding and watch TV in the evening or what is it you are trying to tell me? I have my hopes and believes of how I want my computer to work (which I seem to share with a number of people, with whom I have great fun working together), and I believe my time is best spent coding on Haiku to eventually have my computers work the way I want. I am just not satisfied at all with Windows or Linux or other alternatives, which I am also using almost daily. I am not living 10 or 15 years ago. I *have* a laptop and a quad core machine (among other hardware) and want these utilized as best as possible by the OS that runs on them. I have no clue why you post here and want to spread de-motivation. We have every right to state or goals and dreams on this site and inform the people that care about what we are trying to build. If you don't think we can pull it off, then fine, but please don't try to convince us of that. We have a lot of fun in what we do. You have not paid us any money and we have not promised you anything. This is open source. If you care about the Haiku project reaching its goals then please help us. If you do not care or think we cannot reach our goals, that is fine, but there is nothing you can do for us.

Re: Why not?

I have a hard time not seeing you as a troll NoHaikuForMe, and I suppose we should not even respond to you. But you do make some valid points, but also seem to miss some things.

For one thing, Haiku is not software being created by a business that needs to be sold to pay the bills. The point being, comparisons between Haiku and BeOS in the realm of "not satisfying the market" or whatever, are more or less pointless. I think Stephan expresses the view of many of we Haiku developers in that we are trying to create a system that WE want to use, and if others like it too, great. Not that we don't try to listen to user input, because I think we do. But until Haiku is more usable and stable I think we need to stay focused on satisfying the needs of developers, since they are what can help make the system more appealing to users (with innovative applications.)

The fact that Haiku does not YET run in native 64-bit mode, or work flawlessly on laptops is not really a sign that those aren't important to the project. We just have not done it yet. If it is really that important to you, I would recommend you put your money where your mouth is and pay some developers to work on it. Somehow I don't see you doing that though.

The problem with constantly adapting to changing goals is that you end up never finishing something. But your areas of concern are pretty naive, because while there are certainly quite a few 64-bit machines and laptops around these days, there are still A LOT of 32-bit desktops around. So I sure think it makes logical sense for the very LIMITED pool of Haiku developers to focus on that, the biggest "market."

But again, feel free to donate several hundred thousand dollars so we can hire developers to work on 64-bit and better laptop support so you can be satisfied. Or do the work yourself if you are a developer.

Re: Why not?

just because haiku r1 happens to look like beOS doesn't mean that Haiku the organization has anything to do with Be the organization.

Be inc was against open source and Haiku is for it, but at the same time also commercial friendly. Be wanted the OS to be a niche OS targeted to multimedia and only made it free as an afterthought and BeIA was the "answer" we supposedly were waiting for.

Haiku wants to solve the problems that desktop users face. It doesn't want to be hidden in some device that you replace every 6 months or some high end box that does cool things but nobody knows about.

Re: Why not?

I have a feeling you've never been in the situation of suggesting computer upgrades to non technical users. I gave up on suggesting Linux recently when I realized that I couldn't get my nerdy friends, parents or girlfriend interested enough in it. Explaining environments and distributions became a chore. I would always have to spend an extra 20 minutes talking when asked "what is everyone else using". While Linux has it's benefits, I think it should stay in the server market.

Haiku isn't everything to everyone, Haiku will be just what the average desktop/mobile user needs not unlike XP and OS X.

Re: Why not?

When you make a user name like "NoHaikuForMe" just to post a largely negative message you don't lend much credibility to your opinion. In fact, you sound a lot like those trolls I hear so much about on Linux forums. Haiku most surely does not need the Linux kernel. I've never found a Linux distribution that runs quite like Haiku or is as gracefully user friendly. I'm far from a Linux hater since I have it running on something like 4 computers right now but it is not, nor will it ever be what Haiku is. Comparing them doesn't even seem fair on so many levels. Not to mention that there was an effort to recreate BeOS using the Linux kernel and I don't even know if it went very far (BlueOS) since the last time I checked the website was loading a blank page. I'm happy to have Linux be Linux and Haiku be Haiku. I like to have more than one choice. I'm even happier to have Haiku being like a friendly distant cousin to Linux that can find common ground in enough areas that it will run a lot of the software Linux runs and still have an identity of its own.

Re: Why not?

in the late 90's it looked like linux had potential. So back then you could have asked why BeOS or haiku?

Well we waited for linux. It is now 2008. They tried and it's not going to be much better for the desktop.

It is still not unified, you can't just download an app from any website and install it. You have to use a package manager. This is not good at all for the small developer of commercial apps

Re: A weekend in SF, for LugRadio Live USA 2008

LugRadio video (to follow)

where is video? we still want it )

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