BeGeistert 022 Report

Blog post by humdinger on Thu, 2010-04-15 13:45

While the number of participants wasn't as staggeringly high as the last time in October after the R1/alpha1 was just out the door, about 30 people made it to the conference rooms of the youth hostel. Besides the usual suspects, a new developer, Sebastian, made his debut and fit right in.

As usual people seized the opportunity to show their newest projects and the progress they've made. Everyone had their notebook set up and small groups started to form and dissolve and wander along to the next computer to discuss the little presentations. When Haiku showed some unusual behavior, say wander off to the kernel debugging land, a core developer could quickly be summoned to analyze and often fix the problem.

There've been a few talks in this casual atmosphere, starting with Colin Günther who already had to leave that Saturday afternoon. He described the progress of the WLAN system since R1/alpha1. Unfortunately there's not that much to report, as Colin was in the middle of his master thesis, which he'll start defending in May (good luck!). Since last BeGeistert Haiku gained 12 working FreeBSD drivers. Thanks to Alex Botero-Lowry (drax) there's now a tool called setwep which enables WEP encryption, which however, isn't considered to provide real security. WPA is therefore still the goal he'll be working on in the future. As is a GUI to detect and configure wireless networks. Special thanks went to Matt Madia who worked on integrating WLAN networking into the nightly builds and sorted out the licensing and installation of the different firmwares.

After that all attending Haiku developers had a chance to report on the progress made since R1/alpha1.
The biggest alpha2-blocker seems to be the missing IRQ routing which can lead to particularly WLAN drivers freezing the system. One idea that was briefly discussed, was to prevent these devices to share IRQs at all. (Looks like Michael Lotz started work on that during the Code Sprint, see r36225.)
Stephan's success with the WebKit and WebPositive is plain to see for everone with a current Haiku and Web+ build.
Ingo worked mostly on the kernel to remove locks that slowed Haiku down unnecessarily and on the vm caching. While Haiku and its BFS filesystem are still behind the highly optimized Linux components, the improvements have been quite substantial. Sponsored by the Haiku Code Drive he'll soon embark on extending Haiku's POSIX compatibility and, if it falls in that timeframe, coordinate the R1/alpha2 release.
Besides other smaller things, Oliver looked into POSIX integration of ICU with regard future localization efforts.
Michael implemented the idea of "anyboot", which simplifies installation by providing a single image that can be burned on CD or written to a USB stick.
Adrien kept working on the LocaleKit and managed to keep on top of things with regard to the massive amounts of localization files produced by the fine translators working with the HTA. Further improvements are expected in the summer, when he'll spend two Haiku Code Drive sponsored months working full time on that.
Clemens' main focus was and is on ACPI for power management etc. Maybe he'll also have a look at that IRQ routing problem.
If in the past few months you haven't heard that much from François Revol - who was part of the usual French delegation together with Adrien, Olivier Coursière, Jerome Duval and Michaela - that's because, like Colin, he's focusing on his academic career at the moment. That's why he isn't at the Code Sprint this time either. However, he'll be presenting Haiku at the respected Eurosys conference in Paris. In the future he plans to ease the use of extended attributes between different platforms.

Another BeGeistert veteran also made an appearance: Ithamar Adema, the "Cola Coder". He brought a bunch of code with him, which has been committed to Haiku's SVN by now. It's all about printing, enabling three big features: using printers over the network via CUPS, distinguishing an using several printers connected over USB and printing postscript on all kinds of printers using Ghostscript.
And that is just for starters. We'll see much more of Ithamar's code hitting the SVN in the future. All the things that have been developed especially for Zeta are to be adapted and improved to become part of Haiku.
That's because Ithamar is paid by a company planning to bring a Haiku compatible operating system to the market. All operating system relevant development is to be done in the official Haiku SVN repository; there's nothing like a fork planned. This operating system is also not supposed to be the base of that company's commercial interest. It's all still quite unofficial and Ithamar wasn't free to reveal too much detail, but it sounds like the money is to be made with specialized applications and niche products. The name of that company: yellowTab.

The Sunday saw two more talks. First Niels Reedijk's "Haiku Has No Future", which he first gave at the last FOSDEM.
Later Jan presented a CD burning project that is based on Zeta's yab application JABA. It consists of a C++ library that any application can use as an interface to the cdrecord backend and a Tracker add-on to quickly select and burn some files. It's not yet clear if there'll also be a stand-alone tool or if the yab application will be updated.

This BeGeistert had something new to offer its participants: an optional "Workshop Monday". Many who joined the workshop held at BeGeistert 021 expressed interest in having a whole additional workshop day after the regular BeGeistert weekend. So, this time people could book the Monday to enjoy a hands-on lecture on programming given by Stephan Aßmus. Unfortunately, it turned out only two guys took up that offer: Finn and me!
A shame really, as picking a core dev's brain for about 5 hours is easily worth the 75 EUR. Considering I have only slowly picked up programming last December, others could have profited much more than me. Stippi showed us how to implement several design patterns like notification via listeners, reference counting and actions. I admit, much of what Stephan showed was a bit above my head. But still, I think I've learned quite a bit and am fascinated how elegantly one can code with C++. Plus, after all, I still have Stippi's code to come back to once I'm ready for his code-fu.
Thanks again, Stippi, for taking the time. Hopefully next time, when there'll again be a Workshop Monday, more people show up to learn from a seasoned Haiku developer.

BeGeistert was once more a success and everyone seemed to have enjoyed it. Missed were our Italian friends who somehow missed the date this time and couldn't arrange reasonably priced traveling. The date for BeGeistert 023 isn't yet fixed, but should again be in October. Hope to see you all there!

A few pictures:
http://picasaweb.google.com/HumdingerB/BeGeistert022#

Comments

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

Thanks for the report, nice write-up!

I'm hoping to make it again in October.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

I was not expecting to see Yellow Tab again.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

YellowTab? :-)
Bernd Korz's Haiku company? Hopefully whoever is behind this commercial company can play nice with Haiku developers. I am considering starting an on OS too but my company name will be OrangeTab, BlueTab or WhiteTab. :-)

Thanks for blogging about the event, it was very informative and enjoyable read. Very good progress report!

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

YellowTab. Revenge of The Fallen? lol. Still, nice to hear something new about Ithamar.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

Really nice write-up, Humdinger! With regards to the Tutorial Day, it seemed to me like you could follow me just fine, from the feedback you gave and questions you asked. So I wouldn't agree it was "over your head", perhaps just not delivered at the right time in the evolution of your programming skillz! In any case, I believe you will become a very fine Haiku programmer, since your attention to detail is great and you have the Haiku Way engrained, judging by the many good enhancement requests you've already made and discussed. QuickLaunch is really nice, looking forward to more from you! I'd love if you could tackle the improved Tracker query window yourself. Maybe just start on it and ask for help whenever you get stuck? :-D

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

Thanks for that vote of confidence, Stippi! I'm not sure I'll become that good a coder, however... If nothing else, I'm sitting in front of the computer too much already and now that spring and summer are ready to pounce, I'm less inclined to be locked in than in the winter (when I was "between jobs"). Anyway, I'll try to improve... :)

WRT yellowTab: Yeah, I guess nobody expected them to return...
As I said, it's currently all quite unofficial. I think we should all wait and see before getting our knickers in a twist. I can tell you that we at BG also didn't quite know what to think of it. Is it good? Bad? Irrelevant to our project? All those reactions could be seen to a larger or smaller degree.

I added the few pictures I took to picasa. If anyone else has more, leave the link in a comment and I'll update the post.

Regards,
Humdinger

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

I expected this could happen because Bernd made lots of money selling Zeta OS and he hopes to profit from Haiku too. Haiku code mostly BSD license so anyone can create Haiku distro, open or closed source and sell it for money. YellowTab (yT) OS will not be good for Haiku. It will be a commercial product trying to make $$$. yT OS will have to add value and differentiate to get people to pay for it. It likely will split or cause tensions in the community because it will try to find ways to make money (exclude Haiku from certain custom built or 3rd party programs). A closed source distro that wants to make money will find ways to compete with Haiku and will get applications that do not work with Haiku (ie: like was previously done by linking to exclusive library libzeta.so in Zeta). Haiku (core) Developers have worked long and hard with many hours put into Haiku and hopefully people choose to donate to Haiku - to pay them something for their work. Zeta OS was good because it gave more focus to BeOS & Haiku and bridged the gap. yT OS will be bad because it will steal focus, users and do what it can to exclude Haiku - get people to only use yT OS. Nothing Haiku can do about it though. Users will have to choose for themselves if they want to buy and use yT OS or use Haiku or use another distro.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

YellowTab made Zeta from BeOS, so it wouldn't be suprising if they released Zeta again based on Haiku. I think it could be quite good though.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

@The123king

Yes, it could be very good from user perspective (more and/or better software included) but I fear yT would use anti-competitive practices and lock-in tactics which would take away from Haiku's releases. ie: may get developers to jump from Haiku to yT OS, may make software that only works on yT OS, may give little or nothing back to Haiku (in terms of code and/or money), will fight for dominant market share between Haiku & yT OS, etc., etc.

One or more people can always make a free, open-source distro that could be very good too with lots of software and optional packages. Does this mean I will not buy yT OS? Maybe yes, maybe no - will see when the time comes. When I say bad I mean from point of view of Haiku Inc & their developers not the Haiku user community.

It will be very interesting to see how things work out this time around. Read Marcus' blog post to see what happened in the past and *could* happen again. (Marcus has created many drivers and other software for BeOS/Haiku).
http://haikudev.blogspot.com/2005/08/threatening-mail-by-yellowtab.html

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

yellowtab.com seems to be a newssite right now. I doubt it that this will change.

I know that some of the source code from yt/Zeta was offered for buying. Zaiku was in the air for quite some time back before ZevenOS 2.0 was released.
It seems so that Ithamar and other programmers bought those sources or licensed them (or what so ever).

I personally hope that Ithamar and co. will go the way of an OpenSource Community modell supporting most of the main coding in Haiku without forking it. A commercial version right know seems to be out of the possibility as haiku is in an alpha stage right now.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

This is a YellowTab (yT) comment. Sorry for ranting on about yT. I get angry with them because they profited off others work (BeOS) illegally and fighting with Haiku developers too in the past.

"It seems so that Ithamar and other programmers bought those sources or licensed them (or what so ever)."

I get what you're saying, that Zeta code was bought from yT by one or more coders but understand this. Palm never sold or gave license to yT for BeOS in the first place. So, any changes or additions to BeOS were illegally made and subsequently belonged to Palm also (ie: could not be legally sold). I was provided with this information in a reply to my post from the Open-Source Director @ Palm! That Director said, Palm legally owned BeOS and also owned ALL changes made to Zeta since the code was based off BeOS which was illegally obtained and used by yT. I was stating that changes and code made by yT belonged to yT but he informed me I was wrong. I do not believe Palm will take any legal action if only Zeta code is used in Haiku but you never know - they have the legal right to. These "coders" would have bought or been given the code off yT and not Palm ( the legal owner; ie: Palm owns BeOS & derivate works (Zeta) according to Palm from the Director's comment made directly to me ).

I am very sure they will sell their OS + applications together as one. Otherwise, why state they will create a yT distro and not just use Haiku for their specialized programs instead? If the money only comes from programs then they could make them for Haiku! yT really wants to sell a full version OS with additional features, improvements and other (locked-in?) programs. Niche market means those willing to buy and use commercial, distro version of Haiku.

Can Haiku & yT OS co-exist? Maybe, but yT will do anything it possibly can to get people away from Haiku and using yT OS and increase their profits & market share. It will offer everything Haiku has plus much more additional stuff.

In any case, better to actually wait and see what happens because we can only guess what the outcome will be. It could be good but I have strong, unshakable feeling it could turn out badly but time will tell for sure.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

tonestone57 wrote:

This is a YellowTab (yT) comment. Sorry for ranting on about yT. I get angry with them because they profited off others work (BeOS) illegally and fighting with Haiku developers too in the past.

"It seems so that Ithamar and other programmers bought those sources or licensed them (or what so ever)."

I get what you're saying, that Zeta code was bought from yT by one or more coders but understand this. Palm never sold or gave license to yT for BeOS in the first place. So, any changes or additions to BeOS were illegally made and subsequently belonged to Palm also (ie: could not be legally sold). I was provided with this information in a reply to my post from the Open-Source Director @ Palm! That Director said, Palm legally owned BeOS and also owned ALL changes made to Zeta since the code was based off BeOS which was illegally obtained and used by yT. I was stating that changes and code made by yT belonged to yT but he informed me I was wrong. I do not believe Palm will take any legal action if only Zeta code is used in Haiku but you never know - they have the legal right to. These "coders" would have bought or been given the code off yT and not Palm ( the legal owner; ie: Palm owns BeOS & derivate works (Zeta) according to Palm from the Director's comment made directly to me ).

I am very sure they will sell their OS + applications together as one. Otherwise, why state they will create a yT distro and not just use Haiku for their specialized programs instead? If the money only comes from programs then they could make them for Haiku! yT really wants to sell a full version OS with additional features, improvements and other (locked-in?) programs. Niche market means those willing to buy and use commercial, distro version of Haiku.

Can Haiku & yT OS co-exist? Maybe, but yT will do anything it possibly can to get people away from Haiku and using yT OS and increase their profits & market share. It will offer everything Haiku has plus much more additional stuff.

In any case, better to actually wait and see what happens because we can only guess what the outcome will be. It could be good but I have strong, unshakable feeling it could turn out badly but time will tell for sure.

This is exactly the strong point of GPL... preventing this situation. BSD-style licences are definitely corporate-friendly, but do we really desire that over the guarantee of staying open source?

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

tonestone57 wrote:

I expected this could happen because Bernd made lots of money selling Zeta OS and he hopes to profit from Haiku too. Haiku code mostly BSD license so anyone can create Haiku distro, open or closed source and sell it for money. YellowTab (yT) OS will not be good for Haiku. It will be a commercial product trying to make $$$. yT OS will have to add value and differentiate to get people to pay for it. It likely will split or cause tensions in the community because it will try to find ways to make money (exclude Haiku from certain custom built or 3rd party programs). A closed source distro that wants to make money will find ways to compete with Haiku and will get applications that do not work with Haiku (ie: like was previously done by linking to exclusive library libzeta.so in Zeta). Haiku (core) Developers have worked long and hard with many hours put into Haiku and hopefully people choose to donate to Haiku - to pay them something for their work. Zeta OS was good because it gave more focus to BeOS & Haiku and bridged the gap. yT OS will be bad because it will steal focus, users and do what it can to exclude Haiku - get people to only use yT OS. Nothing Haiku can do about it though. Users will have to choose for themselves if they want to buy and use yT OS or use Haiku or use another distro.

This is exactly the strong point of GPL... preventing this situation. BSD-style licences are definitely corporate-friendly, but do we really desire that over the guarantee of staying open source?

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

"This is exactly the strong point of GPL... preventing this situation. BSD-style licences are definitely corporate-friendly, but do we really desire that over the guarantee of staying open source?"

Rubbish. Any code released under BSD/MIT/Apache will always be open source.

What happens with any derived code is another, far more complicated matter with good arguments on both sides and, so far, no clear winner. Linux is making headway in mobile devices, partly down to GPL'd drivers, but then look at how popular Google's fork Android has become. Meanwhile Juniper and others continue to sponsor FreeBSD's remarkable advances and Postgres goes from strength to strength with commercial contributions while MySQL forks and starts to die the miserable death it deserves.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

022 was quiet in comparison to 021 and thanks very much to Humdinger for his reports in German. It was interesting to see how focussed the sprint was on bug-fixing and nice to hear that the tutorial was able to demonstrate some of the nice concepts of Haiku with a real application. Hoping there will be more of this next time.

All these posts on yT are a bit annoying and those who have the most to say seem to know the least. The only thing worth noting at the moment is that the code has been committed to the Haiku repository and that the Cola-Coder really has returned.

Re: BeGeistert 022 Report

There may now be some similar/duplicate comments in this thread. I'm trying to re-teach the spam filter by marking them as 'not spam'.