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On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Once again, the idea that tracker should use single-window mode was raised as a trac ticket. This discussion was made multiple times on the mailing list, and each time the answer from the developper was no. However, users still seem to prefer the single window mode, and other OS are switching to it. Maybe we just need to explain how to efficiently use this mode, and why we think it's better. I'll try to do that in this blogpost, with my own point of view on it.
A bit of history
The spatial metaphors was used quite early in graphical user interfaces. You can already see it in the first version of Mac OS. It was adopted in windows 95, made optional and non-default on windows 98.
The Mac OS version of spatial navigation was quite well done. The desktop is at the root of everything and shows a list of volumes (or disks). In each volume, you can find folders and files. When a folder is already open, it will be grayed out in the parent so you can see that's the case. Double clicking on a grayed icon will raise the already open window.
From the very start, there were other ways of working. While Windows 3.1 program manager was sort of spatial, it didn't match the filesystem hierarchy at all and offered only one level of windows. The file manager was working with a tree view, a concept still visible in later versions of Windows in "explore" mode, and also part of OS/2 way of working. This kind of browser is now known as "single window" or "navigational". Typical features include not opening a window for each folder, allowing a folder to be open multiple times, and a web-browser like history allowing to go back in time.
BeOS did only allow spatial mode. When OpenTracker got released, one of the first changes done by the community was adding a single-window navigational mode to it. This shows how even BeOS users wanted this feature.
Still, 10 years later, we're still using spatial mode in Haiku as the default one.
Spatial navigation
As I said, in spatial mode, a window is binded to a single folder, and each folder can only be shown in a single window. When opening another folder, another window is opened. Each window stores its position and size, as well as the content (icons) positions inside itself. This makes navigating the filesystem a tangible operation. Beginner users quickly get what "opening" a folder means, and how the hierarchy of files work.
There are some quirks to make it more convenient. On Haiku, these include allowing different workspaces to have the same folder open, possibly at different positions ; and symlinks, which are shortcuts in the directory tree to get somewhere quickly. These are hinted by a slight underlining.
The main complaint we hear about spatial mode is that one always end up with a lot of windows opened. This is a learning problem. When programming in C++, each object you create with new must be released by delete (sorry for the technical comparison). Likewise, in a spatial mode file browser, every folder-window you open by clicking must be closed by clicking - keyboard shortcuts also work. It's just done this way. If you end up with too many windows (in C++ this would be called a memory leak), either you open too much, or you don't close enough of them.
In Haiku, we have a nice feature called drill-down menus. When you right click any folder icon, you can see what's inside and navigate through popup menus to your target. The target is then opened in a window, while the path isn't. Learning how to use that allows you to quickly et anywhere without opening more windows than you need. This really seems to be the key, along with getting used to close windows when you don't need them anymore.
On the other hand, there is a lot of material on the internet showing the drawbacks of navigational mode. I just want to point out I'm so used to spatial mode that I now find it annoying to have to explicitly open a new window when navigating to another directory if I want to keep the one I'm in at the same time. Some file browsers (I use pcmanfm on linux) even added tabs in the windows, which make things sometimes even more confusing, as you may have something open in a background tab which itself is somewhere in an hidden window, and thus won't show up in the taskbar. In Haiku I get a list of all the open folders at a glance. I don't see people really using the navigation support besides the "parent folder" button, or even trying to use the "back" button when they actually mean "parent". Going to the parent folder in spatial mode is as easy as typing alt+up, we could have a toolbar button for it if people really want that.
Document-centered
Another feature of Haiku is that it is document-centered. This goes outside of Trancker and file navigation and defines how applications work and look like. The idea is that a window in Haiku maps to a document on the filesystem. You see how this matches spatial mode navigation.
With the document-centered system, you get more windows on screen than when using other systems like MDI (Multiple Document Interface). But you get to manage all these window the same way, and you can mix them together as you need. It doesn't make snese to group your documents in applications, by filetypes, however, it does make sense to put together a sourcecode editor and a debugger, or a word processing application and a drawing application used to insert diagrams in the document.
The problem is a lot of GUI elements are duplicated : toolbars and menus are shown for each document. Mac OS tried to solve that by moving the menu outside of windows, at the top of the screen. This way, it is shown only once for all documents in an application. However, activating a window suddenly shows the associated menu, which is sometimes a bit confusing, and you can't use toolbars.
A later alternative to MDI and SDI appeared later, it's called TDI for Tabbed Document Interface. The idea is to have tabs for each document in an application. You can see that in any modern web browser, or in Haiku's terminal. TDI avoids nested windows like MDI does it, and makes it a bit easier to manage the documents. However, it still doesn't allow to mix documents from different apps in the same area. Haiku has a solution for that, it's called Stack&Tile. Stack&Tile allows to use tabbing accross applications. This makes it a lot more powerful and allows to group windows by their actual use, not by the document type/associated application. Stacked windows suddenly make it a lot easier to manage all these windows. And tracker in spatial mode just fits this perfectly. Tracker is then the application for opening folders, and it works just like any other application.
Note this is very different from the way other OS work. They tend to have one single application take the whole screen space, while we have multiple ones sharing the space, with ability to operate them together (drag and drop, copy and paste, and other ways of sharing data). This is why tracker windows zoom button will make them shink to fit the contents, instead of growing to hide the whole screen. Any application zooming to the whole screen can get very annoying, because that's of no use, unless you're trying to view a really, really big document. With modern high-resolution screens, it's time to share the space ! StyledEdit should enlarge the window to ensure there are no forced line breaks; showimage will fit the current image, some apps are even not scalable at all since the contents always has the same size. Making the zoom button work that way helps getting things done much more efficiently.
Making it more visible
Working the document-centered way takes some learning, but it's reallyworth it. Having tracker fitting in with spatial mode may be of some help, but it won't do everything. Here are some more things we could do (or try to do) :
- Icon showing open/closed state : this is something that was available in Mac OS since the very beginning. An open folder is grayed out, or shown with an "open" icon. So you know it's already somewhere. The same applies for other documents.
- Document-centered deskbar : currently the deskbar groups things together by application. This makes it hard to see the document nature of things. Grouping the documents could be done by projects, or S&T groups instead. This would help making the grouping more visible.
- S&T groups persistence : I already said tracker windows keep their position and size. All windows should also keep their S&T grouping state accross reboots. Even better, this state could be stored as a "project" and reopened later, as needed, restoring the windows as they were. Projects could be mapped to folders, and show all the documents inside the folder. Or they could be an independant stuff on another layer. Projects would be the grouping criterion in Deskbar, so the deskbar menu for a project would allow to save it, besides closing and hiding it.
Single window mode has some points
There are still things that work really well in single window mode and can't be done in spatial. They relate to the ability to decouple windows from folders. So you can have multiple windows showing the same folder. While harder to understand for beginners, this allows for quite powerful use, as each window can then offer a different "view" on the same folder : one may be sorted by filename, and another by date, so you can quickly grab what you're after. The only way to do that in spatial mode is to cheat using workspaces. A partial answer to this is queries : they are window with a different point of view on the whole filesystem. An application called Trax allows you to do queries with a constraint on the filepath.
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Comments
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
my only beef is that the developers are trying to tell users what they think is a proper workspace enviroment. since haiku offers both, a install time selection and prefrence setting application should be put into place. Don't tell users they are wrong about how they feel most comfortable about navigating a file system. You won't get anywhere with it and you'll alienate your userbase.
Just make it easier to configure, preferably during the install !
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
my only beef is that the developers are trying to tell users what they think is a proper workspace enviroment.
[...]
Don't tell users they are wrong about how they feel most comfortable about navigating a file system. You won't get anywhere with it and you'll alienate your userbase.
+1
I think we (BeOS/Haiku users) all agree in that good defaults are better than too many options. But what good is a default if the mayor portion of the user base ends up moving out of that default?
I for one, since the appearance of OT, the first thing I do after a fresh install is to switch to navigational mode.
Maybe there should be a tool to anonymously (and optionally) gather usage data from the installed official apps?
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
You make some compelling arguments, however I suspect the vast majority of users will prefer to work in single window mode regardless. Either way I respect that it is the developers' decision to make.
Not really related, but I would be interested to hear the developers' thoughts on creating some directories in the users Home directory by default, e.g. Documents, Music, Video, Downloads with the included related applications saving by default to these directories (for example, downloads made with WebPositive landing in the Downloads directory).
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
"The main complaint we hear about spatial mode is that one always end up with a lot of windows opened. This is a learning problem."
Yes, this is what I've seen in the dev's discussion as well, to the effect that "spatial is better, once you have mastered it".
Well, the CLI also has its advantages, once you have mastered it. It's just a learning problem. I don't see people flocking to FreeDOS. If you expect people to understand the C++ rationale before they can start using a system efficiently, you've lost already. Defaults matter, and it is pretty clear that rank-and-file users detest spatial mode.
Haiku's browser mode (with navigator in place) is perfectly adequate. But I agree with the previous poster: the choice should be right there in the installation routine, with two little graphics to explain the difference to first-timers. It should not be something the user stumbles across when they finally get around to exploring Tracker's options. Hey, they can always change it back!
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Although I am in favour of single window mode, I strongly disagree that it should be an option at install. I think it would make Haiku appear more complicated and overloaded with options than it is to new users.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
I strongly disagree that it should be an option at install. I think it would make Haiku appear more complicated and overloaded with options than it is to new users.
+1
What I'd like to see is a short introduction/tutorial in the Installer window a user can click through in the 5 minutes it takes Haiku to install. To do this effectively (including localized content), we'll probably need a nice little BHTMLView.
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Although I am in favour of single window mode, I strongly disagree that it should be an option at install. I think it would make Haiku appear more complicated and overloaded with options than it is to new users.
I totally agree. Haiku are doing it right by using sane defaults. Its just that the developers do not agree with the majority of the users on this one.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
I totally agree. Haiku are doing it right by using sane defaults. Its just that the developers do not agree with the majority of the users on this one.
Aren't sane default based upon the preferred settings for the majority of the users?
If I remember correctly Haiku was also build to be build and configured to be usable out of the box for the most users, so I think that if the vast majority says that they want single window mode as default that should be the default. That's what usability is all about after all.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
I totally agree. Haiku are doing it right by using sane defaults. Its just that the developers do not agree with the majority of the users on this one.
Aren't sane default based upon the preferred settings for the majority of the users?
If I remember correctly Haiku was also build to be build and configured to be usable out of the box for the most users, so I think that if the vast majority says that they want single window mode as default that should be the default. That's what usability is all about after all.
That's exactly what I said.
To clarify even more. Haiku is doing the right thing by having the rule of using sane defaults. But when the devs decide on using spatial as the default setting, they are not following their own rules.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
We are following the rules. They say we should make it better for the users. As you can see, there is an option for enabling single window mode. The fact that there is an option for it means we couldn't reach a perfect argument, and likely we never will. The same apply for alt vs control, and for focus follows mouse. All of them are subject of heated debates from time to time. For each of them, both ways have their selling points. We jsut had to decide on one of them.
Sometimes the user want something that's not the best solution. Else, we would all be using Dvorak keyboards :)
So it takes some effort to explain the choice. Changing the setting isn't going to help either way, it would just make another set of people annoyed.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
We are following the rules. They say we should make it better for the users. As you can see, there is an option for enabling single window mode. The fact that there is an option for it means we couldn't reach a perfect argument, and likely we never will.
How does using a mode that less than 10%* use make it better for the users?
* Numbers from the forum survey, which are the only numbers we got.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Sometimes the user want something that's not the best solution. Else, we would all be using Dvorak keyboards :)
Good one! Although ... I'm not on a Haiku box right now, but isn't Dvorak in the list of keyboards and isn't it auto-detected? :-)
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Sometimes the user want something that's not the best solution. Else, we would all be using Dvorak keyboards :)
This argument is pretty flawed. First of all, there is NO "best solution" when taste is involved. Get over that. Every time someone claims that their test is better than mine, I only get angrier.
Regarding the second part: Isn't Dvorak supposed to be better than Qwerty? Then why isn't the default one, even if the users pray for their loved Qwerty?
So it takes some effort to explain the choice. Changing the setting isn't going to help either way, it would just make another set of people annoyed.
I believe that is pretty naive to not understand that one of the most annoying things for a new user (and for mid-old-timers as me as well, heck, I use BeOS everyday since the 2002) is the lack of familiarity with basic things like folder views (spatial vs the more expected single window mode) and crazy shortcuts (ALT vs CTRL, "Option/Command"? where the heck are those keys?... most people trying BeOS/Haiku haven't seen a Mac in their lives, and have the weird idea that the keys should be called what they read in the actual keyboard).
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Asking in the installation procedure would be a proof of failure. One of the key concepts in Haiku is "Sane defaults, not maximum configurability". That's how we can make the installatin procedure a 3 click process.
The comparison with C++ are from what I see everyday, I'm sure you can find more fitting ones if you think about it.
Command line is indeed a very powerful tool, and that's not a reason to move to freeDOS. First, because OpenDOS is much better ;). And also because freeDOS is not just a command line OS, it's copying a 20 year old OS for compatibility reasons (oh wait, we're doing te same in Haiku ?). The command line is not an old deprecated and boring tool, it's powerful and often gets the work done in simple and fast ways. It's even more powerful if you can easily mix it with the GUI. (also see: http://joncamfield.com/oss/schooltools/Reference/commandline-for-newbies... on how it may actually be easier to use).
As for the choice, really, user preference doesn't matter much, sorry about that :). There are ways you can make the developpers change their minds, but telling "I prefer it the other way" isn't one. You have to convince us, because that's whow it work. The devs are not getting paid for the work they do in Haiku, so users don't have a word to say on preferences. You can still convince us : I'm still curious of why everyone really wants to stick to the single window mode which I find very awkward. Ok, I heard the argument about the windows piling up in a big mess. I proposed two solutions to it : drill down menus and Stack&Tile. Why wouldn't you use that ? I'd really like to see a blog post from someone else about this.
As for the idea of putting a walkthrough guide in Installer, I think this is not so good. You run installer only once, and you may want to get back to that information. I'd put it in the user guide like we have a crash course on using queries. Then maybe we can just open a web browser with the userguide while the install goes on in the background ?
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Asking in the installation procedure would be a proof of failure. One of the key concepts in Haiku is "Sane defaults, not maximum configurability". That's how we can make the installatin procedure a 3 click process.
I disagree, letting people pick their preffered mode of navigation is respecting their prefrence, theres only a few things one would want to adjust in a defualt install anyways. deskbar and windowing mode being the only 2 that need selection IMHO. Thats not fialing, that respecting that people have preffered ways of doing things. S&T being on however is unobtrusive. Now if you talking about configuring 50 items on install, yeah thats a abject fialure, but we are talking about 1 item, 2 if you include preffered deskbar location.
The comparison with C++ are from what I see everyday, I'm sure you can find more fitting ones if you think about it.
Command line is indeed a very powerful tool, and that's not a reason to move to freeDOS. First, because OpenDOS is much better ;). And also because freeDOS is not just a command line OS, it's copying a 20 year old OS for compatibility reasons (oh wait, we're doing te same in Haiku ?). The command line is not an old deprecated and boring tool, it's powerful and often gets the work done in simple and fast ways. It's even more powerful if you can easily mix it with the GUI. (also see: http://joncamfield.com/oss/schooltools/Reference/commandline-for-newbies... on how it may actually be easier to use).
As for the choice, really, user preference doesn't matter much, sorry about that :). There are ways you can make the developpers change their minds, but telling "I prefer it the other way" isn't one. You have to convince us, because that's whow it work. The devs are not getting paid for the work they do in Haiku, so users don't have a word to say on preferences. You can still convince us : I'm still curious of why everyone really wants to stick to the single window mode which I find very awkward. Ok, I heard the argument about the windows piling up in a big mess. I proposed two solutions to it : drill down menus and Stack&Tile. Why wouldn't you use that ? I'd really like to see a blog post from someone else about this.
As for the idea of putting a walkthrough guide in Installer, I think this is not so good. You run installer only once, and you may want to get back to that information. I'd put it in the user guide like we have a crash course on using queries. Then maybe we can just open a web browser with the userguide while the install goes on in the background ?
The only beef I still have, is that you are telling people that they should not only eat chicken, but that they should like chicken as much as you do. I see let them choose between chicken and beef, since it costs nothing to do.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
There are a lot of other settings I tweak when doing a fresh install of Haiku. I use focus follows mouse, a smaller default font size, deskbar in expanding mode. All of this would get added to the "install-time settings", and some more (alt/control switch comes to mind, and likely some other options I dont ven know about). We already added the keyboard layout and language selection and we could also add some accessibility features like left-handed mouse. That's already a dozen of options. Do you want to answer them each time you install Haiku ? I sure don't. Do you want them to be options ? Yes, of course, it's a matter of taste and everyone is already free to chose one way or the other.
For some of them we decided to use the same way as others (right handed mouse), for others we went for what we believe is simpler to understand. Not because we like it, not because it looks the same as in others OS, but because it makes sense to people that know little about computers. This is the target for Haiku, be the OS everyone can use. We know some users want something else, but for this we have settings. The default is only useful for computer beginners, the kind of people that don't even know what a settings window is. With the sane default approach, they can start using the computer right away. And people that know their way around will find where to set the setting.
I know right now it's a bit difficult for Haiku because the current users are not the actual target. We have more technical-minded users which ar eused to other OSes and the way to work with them. A long process of thinking brought us to a decision, we believe it makes sense because we thought about it. And counting users in each side is not an argument in this. If it was, we would ALL be using spatial mode, because windows 95 had it, Mac OS classic had it, and Amiga and Atari ST also had it. Someday some people decided to introduce a single window mode, and at first it was feeling strange to everyone, but we all grown used to it over time. It's just a different way of working, you are allowed to prefer it, but be warned that Haikuis document-centered and if you think about it, you'll see it doesn't always make sense. Unless applications switch to MDI instead, and they already started. Web+ and terminal have tabs, and now ShowImage isn't fitting to contents when clicking the zoom button. I keep finding these apps painful to use in that mode. The tabs mean I can't easily make them be side by side. The fullscreen apps hide useful contents in other windows, and I have no easy way ofmaking things as small as possible, just fitting the contents. Some people say it should work that way, but I don't think so. I'm not complaining about it, maybe I'll try to fix these apps when I get some free time to do it. That's how it works :)
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
As for the idea of putting a walkthrough guide in Installer, I think this is not so good. You run installer only once, and you may want to get back to that information. I'd put it in the user guide like we have a crash course on using queries. Then maybe we can just open a web browser with the userguide while the install goes on in the background ?
As the common complaint of all the left open windows suggests, the user guide isn't read by the majority of users, or they would complain about having to constantly hold the OPT key instead. As it's usual with documentation, but still puzzling, since it should be the logical first place for people to look...
In that regard, putting the quick guide into the installer is IMO a good idea, because that may be the only five minutes a user is bored enough to read something. Opening web+ could OTOH have them wander off to their MyFace, SpaceBook, Twatter and all that.
The quick guide would best be HTML pages that can be linked also from the regular user guide, or linked from the Desktop, put online etc.
WRT making configuration options part of the installation, I'm with you. It's a slippery slope. First it's just the browsing option, then comes Deskbar position, expander and auto-hide settings. Next is ALT/CTRL and why not mouse, keyboard and touchpad settings. All has to be properly explained for the user to be able to make informed decisions.
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
You can still convince us : I'm still curious of why everyone really wants to stick to the single window mode which I find very awkward. Ok, I heard the argument about the windows piling up in a big mess.
Well, to reiterate what I wrote in the other thread, Thunar solves the disadvantage with browser mode by allowing you to simply right click on a directory and choose 'Open in New Window' from the context menu to open a new window with that directory.
Screenshot from my desktop:
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1023/thunar.png
This gives you better control over windows than spatial mode in my opinion (I don't know if Thunar even supports spatial mode). I agree with you on the commandline, which is why I think an option to open a terminal should be available directly in the context menu and not under context-menu->addons->Open Terminal (iirc).
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
You can still convince us : I'm still curious of why everyone really wants to stick to the single window mode which I find very awkward. Ok, I heard the argument about the windows piling up in a big mess.
Well, to reiterate what I wrote in the other thread, Thunar solves the disadvantage with browser mode by allowing you to simply right click on a directory and choose 'Open in New Window' from the context menu to open a new window with that directory.
That's a great feature! You should create an enhancement ticket with that idea.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
...or people learn to use the OPT key together with a double-click. In spatial mode it closes the parent window, in single window mode it opens in a new window. It also works when using the right-click-drill-down version of navigation and when doing keyboard navigation.OPT key usage is pretty consistent.
Also, using a double-click plus modifier is much faster than right-clicking, looking for the menu item, moving the mouse and left-clicking.
I'd rather see context menus getting shorter than longer.
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
...or people learn to use the OPT key together with a double-click.
Thanks! I didn't know that, that's great. Man, so many clicks I could have saved had I known that earlier :)
Atleast I've been using opt+ctrl+t to open terminal windows in directories. I wonder how many other great key+mouse combinations I'm missing out on due to ignorance.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
I wonder how many other great key+mouse combinations I'm missing out on due to ignorance.
I don't think there aren't that many... Besides the relatively new CTRL+ALT+left/right-click to move/resize any window. I recommend having a look at the user guide chapters on the GUI, Tracker navigation and Shortcuts in general.
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
I don't think there aren't that many... Besides the relatively new CTRL+ALT+left/right-click to move/resize any window.
I didn't know that either. I guess I'm suffering from the WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) syndrome. On that note, this is perhaps something adding more options to the context menues helps with, better inform on available shortcuts (I learned the keyboard shortcut for opening terminals that way). I doubt I'm the only one who just won't RTFM ;)
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
I guess I'm suffering from the WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) syndrome. On that note, this is perhaps something adding more options to the context menues helps with, better inform on available shortcuts.
Sure, we have always to weigh between easier visibility and bloating up the GUI, however. At one point you're more overwhelmed by a dozen menu items than it helps. In case of the resize/move shortcut, there isn't even a fitting context menu...
Also, we have to consider that for the sake of making a keycombo-feature available, we're stuck with that blasted menu-item forever, even if everyone will use the shortcut. Or would you "open in a new window" from the context menu, if it's much faster to OPT-double-click? The familiar saying is: a newbie exists only for a short time before she becomes more experienced. Of course, it could also mean: a newbie exists only for a short time before she annoyedly leaves the platform... :)
One possibility, at least in case of the OPT key, is to change the menu dynamically. That is, when holding OPT, the menu item "Open..." becomes "Open in new window..." (when in single browsing mode). This would at least benefit the curious user that is eager to explore a new OS and likes to try things. It's already done with the SHIFT key, BTW. But that is probably also not widely known...
[BTW, the above example can't be worded as elegantly for spatial mode... "Open and close parent window.."???]
I doubt I'm the only one who just won't RTFM ;)
And that is IMO the key. People coming to a new OS or users that want to stay abreast with the progress of the system have to be informed. We do that through the user guide. Obviously you can lead a user to the guide, but can't make her read...
Maybe a "Tip of the day" item on the website would be a good idea that shows the top 10 Haiku "secrets".
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
See: http://joncamfield.com/oss/schooltools/Reference/commandline-for-newbies... on how it may actually be easier to use).
Not bad, but Neal Stephenson's "In the beginning was the command line" (http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html) remains the best piece of writing on this topic I've seen.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Ok, I heard the argument about the windows piling up in a big mess. I proposed two solutions to it : drill down menus and Stack&Tile. Why wouldn't you use that ? I'd really like to see a blog post from someone else about this.
I use single window mode + navigator, and I use the drill-down menues extensively, and plan on trying to get used to Stack and Tile as soon as I update my install (I do believe that S&T provides value). Why do you think those two later features are not a good match for single window mode?
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Spatial mode maybe good in a document-centric environment, but the problem is, that users accustomed to the 'open application -> open document -> work on it -> save and forget' way of doing. The old users because of the DOS days, regardless if they now use Windows, Linux or OSX. And young users use web-apps nowadays.
A full window/screen mode is a must for editing graphics, and most people find overlapping windows confusing. Probably it is only implemented in early guis for demo reasons...
Please bear in mind, that most of us (at least me) look at Haiku and other alternatives as a faint hope to escape the clutches of Microsoft Tax, and/or the "Plug Compile and Pray" and "Let's break it because it works" mentality of Linux-based desktop systems, not as a revolutionary leap in desktop computing. :-)
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Spatial mode maybe good in a document-centric environment, but the problem is, that users accustomed to the 'open application -> open document -> work on it -> save and forget' way of doing. The old users because of the DOS days, regardless if they now use Windows, Linux or OSX. And young users use web-apps nowadays.
A full window/screen mode is a must for editing graphics, and most people find overlapping windows confusing. Probably it is only implemented in early guis for demo reasons...
Please bear in mind, that most of us (at least me) look at Haiku and other alternatives as a faint hope to escape the clutches of Microsoft Tax, and/or the "Plug Compile and Pray" and "Let's break it because it works" mentality of Linux-based desktop systems, not as a revolutionary leap in desktop computing. :-)
In the Opensource world Haiku is the revolutionary leap.
Design goals
Design guidelines
consistent api "where its finalized"
etc etc etc.
Its revolutionary in the fact that it has a design and functionality focus as well as a usability model " which is great imho with the exception of the defualt windowing mode"
Haiku is the open source OS, waiting for its moment in the spotlight. It'll get there.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
POLL
Post your preference here: http://forums.begroovy.com/index.php?topic=5465.0
This is a way to quantify your preference.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Survey here: https://spreadsheets2.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dEo2RHVHUH...
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
As soon as a user has to actually think about a usage paradigm, the interface is no-longer usable. Simple as that. You have no argument that can counter this.
Are we Apple? Do we want to force illogical usage paradigms on users for shits and giggles?
However, I think there is a happy middle ground that could be had. Perhaps a key could be held down to switch to a single window mode type navigation - so that you can navigate without windows stacking up.
Another way would be to stack and tile the windows/tabs in a way that looks as though a path is building up...
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Well, I think there will be unhappy people either way. Some of us will always have to old OPT to get the system do what they want. That's why there is an option in tracker preferences to select your preferred mode.
Spatial mode with autoclosing windows would be just a degraded navigational mode, with windows jumping around and no history - who'd want to use that ?
It's not about thinking of the paradigm, it's about chosing the one that makes sense to you. We made a choice for Haiku as a whole, we understand it may not fit everyone and we now have an option for users that see things otherwise. Most OS don't even have that option. So, I think Haiku has made its best, by allowing to use both modes ?
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Well, I think there will be unhappy people either way. Some of us will always have to old OPT to get the system do what they want. That's why there is an option in tracker preferences to select your preferred mode.
Spatial mode with autoclosing windows would be just a degraded navigational mode, with windows jumping around and no history - who'd want to use that ?
It's not about thinking of the paradigm, it's about chosing the one that makes sense to you. We made a choice for Haiku as a whole, we understand it may not fit everyone and we now have an option for users that see things otherwise. Most OS don't even have that option. So, I think Haiku has made its best, by allowing to use both modes ?
I think the problem might be bigger then you suspect, most PC users are from a mouse centric user paradigm, where as many developers or power users are more keyboard centric.
So it really depends on who you target audience is, if its power users and developers the keyboard cnetric model works better, if its your typicaly user scenario of the average office or other pc users, then the use case needs to be mouse centric.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Perhaps there should be a button to simply switch modes without digging into the settings? That way users can simply toggle it and everybody is happy. They would also visually be able to tell which mode it is in *before* they get frustrated. (BTW, I hate the slider switch style widget. You'd think it would make sense but I find it doesn't, toggle button FTW).
You make a good point about my suggested "hold a key" approach I suggested lacking history... perhaps this could be worked around though.
Re: On spatial mode and the document-centered interface
Am I really seeing OS developers that are trying to teach users how to use their OS?