A mascot

Well, uh... Survey says two against, one for a racoon (hopefully on the kidding side)... and zero likes...

(Why does this thread exist if no one realistically wants a mascot?)

Nevermind, I'll just stick to development, then...

I'm sure you mean a shoal of pirhana?

I really like that idea.

I thought that was a moskito... never seen a red bee with a "stinger" on it's nose.

mmm end these:

or

not forget the origins!! 8)

Wow! Very good. :)

I will have uncontrollable urges to slit my throat if Haiku gets some dumb-ass "mascot".

Show me one successfull, commercial, professional OS (closed source, with a real marketing department) behind it that has a mascot.

I'm not kidding when I say this: Haiku gets some frackin' mascot, and I'm gone. No more BeOS. If I wanted a freakin' mascot, I'd be a linux zealot.

I'm forming a suicide pact with Bryan. Please, please: No mascot.

No Walt Disneyesque degradations. No infantile cartoonish inanities. Please let's preserve our dignity, and simply enjoy the elegance and understated beauty of the superb graphics already developed and in use for the Haiku project. These artists (Stubear and Kurtis and associates) are professionals; their work reflects this. Let's honor it and not debase it.

Would we paint a "clown smile" on Leonardo's Mona Lisa and call it an "improvement for marketing appeal"?

Please, no. Let's have some respect, and self-respect.

Czeslaw

P.S. A worthwhile essay on Disneyworld for the curious:
http://www.worldfreeinternet.net/news/nws10.htm

Well, not that I'm really a community member these days, but I'd be plain embarassed if we got a mascot - so you can count me in too Bryan!

A symbol (ie logo) is fine, such as the leaf device already in use, in fact I'd say its essential for marketing. However, mascots are a gimmick for characterless and/or faceless systems - BeOS was neither, and nor will its children be.

This subject has come up so many times and its just plain dumb, how many times have I cried on my keyboard as someone says lets have a Bee mascot or whatever...

Precisely. The Haiku leaf is not a mascot, mercifully. It's more a logo or a suggestive leit-motif. And a compellingly good one.

The world would not "ignore" a mascot. A mascot would necessarily alter the public's perception of the platform. This claim seems specious to me.

The "suicide talk" was hyperbole, and perhaps not the best rhetorical strategy on my part. I offer my apologies. And nobody is proposing a boycott -- at least, I don't think so. I doubt that Bryan would really abandon his phenomenal years-long work with Andrew on the Java port because of some ill-advised decision taken here to adopt a mascot. (At least, I would hope not....) The point was to express heartfelt opposition to this proposal in no uncertain terms, as a matter of principle.

More importantly, who's to say that this is even a decision that properly falls within the purview of the "community" at large, or rather the tiny subset of the community that happens to be aware of this one unfortunate forum thread? Has the Haiku admin team issued a public call for "mascot candidates"? Did I miss this? (Didn't anyone read Kurtis's earlier post that the admin team has not decided to develop a mascot for the platform?)

The "community" is not creating Haiku; the Haiku development team and supporting teams are creating Haiku. Why are we -- here and now -- even discussing this "rebranding" of somebody else's labor of blood, sweat, and tears?

This seems profoundly disrespectful to me. It would be akin to my giving any one of you a new name, and insisting that everyone use that instead of your real name from now on. Against the objections of your parents -- who gave you your real name in keeping with their right and privilege -- I would say: "Just ignore this new name that I have given your child, if you don't like it..."

Please, think about it.

I would have to agree with those who feel that a mascot would cheapen the haiku project.
Moof was a icon for clarisworks and was never an official (or even an unofficial as far as anyone i know is concerned) mascot for the Mac OS or Apple computers.
Apple is a great company to study when it comes to the design of logos. the original apple logo was Isaac Newton setting under a tree with a banner across the top that read apple computer company. once they started to really consider it the logo was changed to the bitten apple logo. that logo has been rated as one of the best recognized logos in the world up there with the McDonalds golden arches. the current Haiku logo is very cool it has an eames type of feel to it very Mod... very clean. perfect as far as I'm concerned.

Czeslaw, we seem to end up agreeing on lots of stuff!

I'm also against a mascot completely. The suggestion to ignore it is just plain silly - having a masoct would change how the project is perceived by everyone. I can just see the Haiku homepage with a huge picture of a friendly cartoon bee, with his strange japanese racoon-like animal friends, beating the hell out of a flattened penguin. And then some little text underneath that says "Professional users please just ignore the mascot and click here for our serious, elegant website".

I accept that if Haiku was trying to target exclusively linux users, people might miss Tux and want a big cuddly (insert animal here) to take to bed with them at night; but if we want to target a wider audience of windows and mac users, government organisations, professional companies, etc, I think a mascot would be more a hinderance than a help.

What's needed is something small and iconographic. I think the best candidate is something similar to the circle of leaves used as the haiku-os.org site icon. Maybe with a bit less white space, with the leaves overlapping more (so the next stalk is outside the previous leafy bit if that makes sense). I can see this use all over the place - case badges, "Designed for Haiku" stickers, round the hole in the official R1 CD, showing which component is being loaded in the boot screen (imagine the Be circles, with the currently active one having that circular logo rotating around it). A really great thing to build a brand identity around.

To me, a mascot just screams "HOBBY OS! HOBBY OS!".

Simon

ps: Nowt wrong with hyperbole :D

Indeed. Iconic representations can take on lives of their own after they leave the artist's desk. Some, developed without sufficient cautionary foresight, can tend to lend themselves more readily than others to misuse of the sort that you imagine. It's important to keep in mind that the Haiku team chose to name the project "Haiku", not "Nursery-Rhyme".

Yes, that makes good sense. In its current incarnation, the circle-of-leaves browser favicon is well-suited to its original intended use, namely, as a miniscule icon for display on computer monitors. It's perfect for that. But if one were to scale it up for other uses, say, advertising on a 40 meter billboard, then it might need some adjustment. Your suggestion to decrease white space and increase the visual density of the colored image areas strikes me as spot on.

The simple fact that you're compelled to conceive of myriad new uses for this simple image is a testament to its strength as a graphic (and the fecundity of your imagination). (Kudos, again, to Stubear and Kurtis and friends.) I had imagined case badges myself, and even have plans to create them, but I hadn't come up with any of the other applications that you've enumerated. Your boot screen idea is a brilliant combination of the old and the new.

How can you say that? Your position is positively indefensible! Hyperbole is beyond doubt the most heinous of thought-crimes against humanity!

(Please forgive this pathetic attempt at self-referential humor...)

Firstly, to clarify, a lot of what I was saying was hugely exagerated. I'm sure Haiku wouldn't create a new-mascot-kills-tux cartoon for the homepage. I was just expressing my opinion that a mascot would "cheapen" the project somewhat, and detract from the professional, elegant image that Haiku has started to build so well.

The reason I expressed my view as strongly as I did was because this thread seemed to be going down the line of "so we're agreed we want a mascot. How about cute-animal-x?", and I wanted to add my voice to those of opposition to the whole mascot thing.

There are a number of commercial projects based on it, but do they have mascots? I would guess not. My dream for Haiku is that it will become a viable, professional OS in it's own right - it won't need a commercial entity to swoop in use it as a base for a "commercial project". I think that is needed for an open source OS to be viable - a single entity responsible for the whole OS, ensuring consistency. However to achieve anything like that, it means Haiku needs to think about more things than most current open source projects. They/we need to consider future markets, image, etc.

Any examples of majorly sucessful commercial products to back this up with? So mcdonalds have little fluffy Ronalds to attract the kids, that's not the market we're looking at. OBSD is technically a good system, which the technical people representing the commercial enitities you speak of recognise regardless of (I could even say despite) the mascot. However, the OBSD project themselves isn't aiming for any real user market share.

I would hope it would be up to those in charge to decide whether or not to have one. If they say yes, then we could maybe have a period of suggestion, then voting, as for the name. The problem is, most people who would vote would be ex-BeOS users so I would be suprised if anything other than a bee was picked. The danger is in 10 years time, a lot of the Haiku users won't have heard of Be Inc, Haiku won't look a lot like BeOS did (new visual design, multiuser, etc), and we'll be left with a mascot that for most people is one of the most annoying creatures on the planet (little pesky things that buzz around you when you're trying to enjoy a nice summer's day, then sting you and die). To me that's not a great image for the project.

I also think Haiku can't be operated in a "whatever the community wants, the community gets" style. Otherwise feature creep will take over and it will end up as bloated as linux.

An open source OS without a cheesy mascot? That is thinking out of the box IMHO.

To most users an OS is just "there". They find it hard to seperate "computer" and "operating system". Having a mascot character for an OS just seems very geeky to me. Imagine Sony trying to sell walkmans using a cuddly badger-type character (for some clever internal reason that only a handful of their customers understand).

Hopefully you will at least accept that my position is based upon thought and logical argument, and not just some mascot-phobia.

Simon

I think the crane which represents longevity fits perfectly. Bleh! It could be cartoony like tux.

this has my vote too. simple, elegant, and beautiful. :D

a "circle of leaves" denotes were members of a cult of vegan wiccan naturists, therefore, it will not be a "mascot" as if it COULD be. :-P

Though, not to cast aspersions... heh.

To respond to a few points:

-Commercial use: Any logo can be used to make T-Shirts, Mouse pads, etc. It doesn't have to be a mascot. Also having a t-shirt with a mascot for an OS has got to be one of the ultimate geeky things. I think we should try and avoud the geeky image as much as possible - although I consider myself a bit of geek, and geeks will undoubtably be vital to the sucess of the project, we don't really want to appear a "geek" project, for fear of putting off the "cool" people (or normal people :D)

I've followed your advice and been to the OpenBSD page. Wow, I can't believe this is being suggested as one of the best mascots out there. A strange puffer fish with eyebrows and stupidly enlarged lips with some other kind of fish on a cartoony style lead. Imagine if you were a poor windows user searching for an alternative and you happened upon that page. Doesn't look like a professional alternative to me.

I disagree with your point that managers must like the mascot to base their comercial product on - they would have their technical team present to them a load of gibberish on why OBSD is the best choice, and just accept it. They probably wouldn't even visit the website. If they did, they know they'll have their own website/logo for selling to customers, so they're not at all concerned about the branding of the OBSD team.

The one fact I know about bees is that they sting once, and then die. I did mean the bee dying by the way. It's also possible I could have been exagerating again :o, sorry!

I mainly agree with you here, and it's off topic anyway so won't discuss it too much. I think there needs to be someone overall in charge who isn't afraid of saying "no" though - different people have different definitions of what "isn't really part of the OS", and having the vague definition won't be enough to prevent bloat IMHO.

Again, mozilla is only really known in geek circles. Netscape don't use it, and note that firefox, which is more aimed at normal users, also doesn't appear to have a mascot.

Another important point that hasn't been mentioned yet, AFAICT, is that these other OSS projects don't actually have a logo; and the mascot is used as a logo too. This is true for linux, OBSD, and mozilla anyway. Haiku already has a logo (2 if you count the word with leaves and the circle of leaves - both unified with the leaf motif though), and a very good one at that. It's best not to try to associate too many different images with a product.

I'll try and bash together a quick "overlapping" leaf graphic that I mentioned before.

Simon

True, and you're going to have to explain to me why you think a mascot is geeky. It isn't. People who will just use an OS will not typically visit the OS's web site, they'll just have there "geek" friend install it and that'll be that. Anyone with enough motivation to look into alternative OS's is part of that "geek" catagory and thus won't be affected by the presense (or lack thereof) a mascot.

Who said it was one of the best? I certainly didn't, I only suggested that I was a good example of a successful project (in more ways than one) that has a mascot. And windows users don't look for alternative OS's. They sit in there little world not even knowing that other OS's exist (in my experience of course). Quite frankly I find the idea that the average windows user would be searching for an alternative OS laughable (no offense intended).

And I must disagree with you opinion that OBSD doesn't look like a professional alternative. It is considered by many (myself included) to be one of the more secure OS's in existance today. I would even dare to say the most secure OS (at least publicly availible).

I didn't say that managers must like the mascot. I said that they must not be against them otherwise no project with a mascot would have a chance of getting any public or private funding or be used by industry in any real way. Go check out OBSD contributers page, you'll find that many individuals and companies have given money, hardware, etc to the project (http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html)

My suggestion would be, if 90%+ people need it, they get it. Of course it could just be included along with the distro and not installed by default in the case of apps. Haiku does have a long way to go before this becomes an issue though.

You seemed to be asking for a commercial product that has a mascot, or at least that's what it seemed. You now have one, and a successful one at that.

True, but I hardly think that a leaf logo and then some other related mascot is overloading people with images. If they are related (and they should be) there won't be any problem with association.

My only point is that it isn't a bad idea, there is a difference. I believe that your opinion that a mascot will drive away people is quite humerous.

To *you*. Normal users are not aware of lan parties and most like little cute cuddly toys. That being said I've never been to a lan party and I don't like cuddly toys, but the average user at least won't take that into consideration when choosing an OS, at least the mentally stable ones won't.

Linux has been waiting for this as well for a long time. It hasn't happened because of windows massive advertising campain along with professional certs, etc. People have been brainwashed into thinking that windows is that only OS and those that know otherwise are locked into using it for one reason or another. ie company wants to pay for a product to get support - I know that this is laughable but managers don't think logically.

I see absolutly no sign of this. I also see the dumbing down of the education system, not just in the US and Canada, but all over the world as well. People have become more centered on themselves and aren't really learning anything. Basically, over the past number of decades, I've seen the general intellegence level fall very steadily and there is no sign of it letting up.

Mainly they are switching there servers to Linux (which isn't a good one IMO). And people are lazy. They will *not* want to learn a new OS no matter how similar it may be. I've been trying to get my parents to install Linux for a *long* time (KDE is *very* similar to the windows if) and they just don't want to even though every single program they run has a linux equivilent. They are the typical user and they don't want to even try linux, enough said.

I am here because I thought BeOS had some great ideas. I am here because I think that Haiku is improving upon those ideas and will carry the OS in a good direction. I don't think that there'll be a revolution, but I do think that this is an exciting project.

It's the reason that I contacted mphipps to donate my time to develop for this project. He hasn't gotten back to me and thus I've moved onto other things. I do believe that this latter thing needs to be fixed before any revolutions happen, IMO of course.

Indeed a misunderstanding. OBSD is primarily a server OS. I use it for my desktop because I'm more of a developer. In fact if X was able to use the TV out on my Radeon I would have no need for windows at all.

Which IMO and others doesn't exclude the possibility of a mascot. And you have still provided no convicing arguments that this is the case. You have only stated "this is what I beleive".

I was refering to Geico.

Stand out yes, run the risk of looking like any other faceless corp, yes.

No there isn't any real one web page, but they all have tux there. Consistency is what people will know. If I see the penguin then I have the right page. And there is a reason for that penguin by the way.

Your opinion it's strange, to OBSD, revenue, to the average user (my wife is one) cute and attractive.

Jumping the gun a little here aren't we?

To *you*, and you seem to be the only one here really fighting the point.

You seem to be forgeting that for most users, computers are for work and that's it. The others will use it for games which by nessessity is windows. The vaste minority use it for development to which because of the former two reasons scatters them across a multitude of platforms. Haiku has a long uphill battle to fight to get anywhere. Having something besides a leaf to have it stand out in the crowd would be benificial as long as it isn't rediculus, which (again) is the reason for these threads.

I like all the ideas. I've seen some, come up with some.

But I forgot, we have one.

Moe. Matter of fact, we have at least two mascots. I assume the little avatar friend to moe is "genki"

Now you get it. Moe is pronounced "MOW-ay"

As in MAUI

As with all modern japanese mythology, all special physics apply. :-)))

If you don't know what that means... well.

Ok, bit shorter post hopefully.

Thanks to Csezlaw for the summary of the anti comments.

For the pro-mascot people, remember we haven't even got to the stage of deciding which mascot. The only agreement I remember seeing was in response to the bee suggestion, which as I have explained is a terrible image for the OS IMHO. I suspect a lot of people who are for a mascot in principle would dislike the one chosen, and prefer to have none at all. As thies said: "Keep it abstract like the current logo and you get the highest amount of people happy. "

Not really responding to many mascot comments, just to some general OS ones (sorry to be off-topic):

I disagree completely about why linux hasn't had an influx of users. It's because of the attitude - developers don't have an issue with distributing apps in source form only, and expecting people to build it themselves. There seems no attempt to bring consistency across the different projects that make up the operating system - apps require a certain kernel version, certain X-windows, loads of depenencies, a bit of admin as root to set up, a few corrections to get it to compile on your particular set up, etc, etc. Give people an alternative that actually has been created with them in mind, and that actually works better than Windows, and we might see a different picture.

I'm a typical geek and I don't want to try linux. I hate the attitude I mentioned above - I might do some development, but I'm a user at heart.

It's an open source project, that happens. Hundreds of people send emails, say "I want to help" and then do nothing. Michael has (rightly) decided it's not worth spending time replying individually giving people tasks and such. The people who are going to be commited devs to the project would be able to read the FAQ about how to contribute. Contact the team lead you're interested in, pick a task that needs doing, and write some code. No offense intended - I have also said that I will help out, and not done anything. It's a common problem, but I certainly don't blame Michael for me not contributing anything real to the project. It's all my own fault.

I've still yet to see a professional mascot for a software product. Maybe it's possible. I think it's undoubtable that a mascot creates more strong feeling in people than a logo (some will like it, some will hate it), and if you're aiming to put as few people off as possible, you don't want people to imediately hate the first image they see regarding your product.

Ah right. Needed google to tell me who they were, don't have them in the UK. Maybe it helps them to portray an image of having friendly advisors on hand, I dunno. At least it's directly related to their name so it's obvious why that animal was chosen.

I think your attitude towards windows' dominance is quite narrow minded. I work in an office with people who have switched OSes more times than they care to remember. It's true that there's many more computers in many more places than in the days of VAX, but there are still huge markets pretty much untouched by computers (in the developing world especially). Games are fairly portable by nature (look at the variety of consoles and platforms they run on), they are only tied to windows for market reasons. And markets change.

Simon

What I meant was that he was the only one that was really driving it home. And for the past number of days it was myself and him arguing the point. One can make some assumption from that. To the rest of your post, I will not lower myself to reply.

There will only be one choosen if the majority want a particular one. If a debate about which one goes on for an extended period of time then it'll adventually be dropped.

All the linux apps, etc that I've seen/used have come in source for but also in binary form. Ever hear of an rpm? How about a deb? These also come in a source variety but the default is binary.

Redhat, Mandrake, etc come with a utility to install programs and there dependancies are automatically installed along with the program.

I've seen no apps that require a certain kernel version, just library version which the mentioned install utilities can upgrade with a click of a button. And what certain X-windows? What admin setup? I've rarely changed any of the defaults on something that was "just an app." If fact I can't remember doing so.

Point missed. They don't want to move from windows, which is the same as any other windows person that I've met. They think it's just a waste of time and that they could be working during that time instead of learning a new OS.

I don't remember mentioning such an attitude. Did you?

What I sent was a message about something legal about a project idea that I had. I didn't want to put this project in jepordy so I asked someone in charge and mphipps said no thanks, we don't want it anyway. My reply was, firstly a defense of backward compat, and secondly, I thought of these programs to write but they have either been turned down or already done/being done, where do you want me. IMO, this is an acceptible request. Someone willing to work that has given examples of things that (s)he was thinking of doing wants something to do. The request didn't even get a reply. This is something, IMO, that is unacceptable for a lead to do.

And if they didn't want to answer or get these emails then they should (it's been mentioned in another thread) put these things that they want done, but are a low priority on a web page somewhere for those of us to pick up. Send code when completed a significant portion is done to say "Hey, I'm serious here" and then move on from there. The ignoring thing, IMO, deters potential developers and isn't exactly the most mature thing to do.

You still seem to be going along this unfounded route that, in the general population, people are put off by mascots. The "normal people" (read: non-techie) that I know all love tux/puffy/etc. It is the average person that should be aimed at (as you yourself have said) and if they like it then why not?

And people don't think too much about these things. If they see a cute little bee then they'll think, what a cute little bee. They won't think, oh gee, those things sting people/anoy poeople and then die straight away. Perhapse I won't try this OS as that must be true about it as well. Again, they'll just think, what a cute little bee.

That being said, although I do like the idea of the bee, but it doesn't fit the current OS name. Haiku and a bee don't really fit. Something else must be thought of, which IMO, hasn't surfaced yet (still waiting for some pics that people have promised). But this is no reason not to stop brainstorming.

This is what I'm getting at above, there must be a relation.

Actually, I take a realist point of view. People are lazy by nature and will stick to what works, period. Even if it doesn't work well, it still works, therefore there is no reason to change. Every non-techie that I know thinks this way (and with the large sample that I have and there common attitude vs I have it wrong = statisitcal improbability). This is the reason why M$ has kept a monopoly on the market for so long. They know where people's thresholds are for changing and they make it just a nudge better than that.

Games are not portable. Most of them are made using directx which is M$ only. The others use the propriatary API of that particular console. The only API that I've run across that is portable is the SDL. Try to find a commercial game that uses that. Current games are coded on windows for windows period. And why do you think that they have games out there for both windows and xbox, because they use the same API. Instant developer community.

The engine (physics, map loading, etc) may be made somewhat protable, but graphics engines are not. It either costs a lot of time to create an engine or a lot of money to license one. And the only reason why companies are moving toward consol development is that PC games are too easy to crack and copy. It's far more difficult to pirate console games, mod chips and all.

I'm sorry, but as other people already said, you should,roughly in this order:
A. Have a look at the code.
B. Find a task.
C. Write some code.
D. Contact the team leader saying you have written some code
E. Eventually, post the code somewhere so that we can have a look at it.

If you think this is long and / or too complex, try to send a mail to Linus Torvalds saying you want to help (without code, of course).

BTW, the above sequence of actions is what I did to "be able" to contribute to Haiku.