Beta phase!

Forum thread started by ddavid123 on Fri, 2012-04-27 03:10

I would suggest that Haiku should enter beta phase now and all new features applying to R1 be delayed to R2 if possible. The longer we wait for R1 the harder it is going to be for Haiku to be compatible with the computing requirements of its users. Once R1 has been released then work should begin on R2 by making the default GNU Compiler Collection version 4.X.

While I understand that being BE OS 5.1 compatible is important, I also believe that stagnation is a real danger here. Be OS was and still is a brilliant and wonderful OS! It had features that truly were innovative and ahead of its time. While I believe Haiku should be a reimplementation of Be OS, it should not be a mirror image of a dead OS forever!

Again I am forced to put away my love and admiration of Haiku here temporarily and look at the state of the matter! In the beginning it was and still is an admirable thing to try to preserve Be OS and it's legacy. But it has been eleven years since Be OS died and there has not yet been a R1. Here we are on the verge of a fourth Alpha release and still many bugs are yet to be fixed and missing features have yet to be developed!

My opinion is to drop all features that have been planned for R1 that have not been done and wait to do them in R2. This way we start working on a Beta 1 and hopefully within a year to two years we will have a R1! Then work can begin on R2. Depending on an antiquated gcc 2.95 is already causing problems and will continue to cause problems! There are many programs that will not compile on gcc 2.95 and having two C compilers adds extra complexity!

That is my two cents! Spend it wisely.

Comments

Re: Beta phase!

Now that document viewer is out, I don't think that gcc2 is needed, unless there are more closed source apps that don't yet have a replacement.
As far as beta phase goes, we shouldn't go into beta until we are almost feature complete with the basics of an OS. Feature complete to me means at least wifi and probably package management. I hope these two things are what the majority of the donations go towards.

Re: Beta phase!

I also agree, there is nothing worse than nothing happening. It's stable enough to go into Beta. And really, I just can't wait!

Re: Beta phase!

It would be great if webpositive gets html 5 and css3...

this would be a visible and a surprise feature for most ordinary PC user.

Re: Beta phase!

I'm not too familiar what alpha and beta technically mean in software development, what separates them, but what I know is that it's been too long from last official release. My secondary desktop PC has Haiku on it. It's alpha 2, since alpha 3 refuses to even run so long that I could test it out, even from CD. Random nightly builds I have tried all end up in KDL on boot from CD. So it's alpha 2 for me, for way too long. I boot it maybe once in 2-3 months now, I tweak around and that's that for another 2-3 months. So I have nothing to give back to community and I also feel like my connection with Haiku is dying. So please, whatever it is - alpha, beta, R1, 2, 3 - please put something out that can be tested, talked about, compare to and keeps the community alive.

PS. Big thanks to You who You are developing Haiku. I truly appreciate Your work. I wrote about how I feel, and I know nothing about developing OS. It's just to give You a layman's view.

Re: Beta phase!

goldencut wrote:

Random nightly builds I have tried all end up in KDL on boot from CD.

Have you reported a ticket for that?

Re: Beta phase!

Its been way too long, I hardly have any interest anymore
Ive waited 11 years, and lately, it just doesn't seem worth the wait anymore

I don't understand why you cant have something right here, on the Haiku website, to tell people what and when something may actually happen

I tried A1, 2 and 3, and each time, I had to find out about the download from OSnews, because Haiku.org doesn't tell you anything until the day it happens

I dont care if R1 is 10 years away, as long as something happens every few months. If its not R1, I dont care,,, just have something new every now and then

Knightly builds are too hard to understand or use for the average person, they need a A3 . 5, or .6, .8 etc

Just give us something, to show us something is happening

When A1 came out, I told everyone I know about the good news, and that they would be able to try it soon. Now they dont care anymore, and I dont either. Its just been too long

A3, was almost useable, but not ready for 24/7 usage
Any little update or fix, could have made it useable 24/7
But waiting another year, for something with lots of updates or fixes
Just aint keeping people interested anymore

Re: Beta phase!

richienyhus wrote:
goldencut wrote:

Random nightly builds I have tried all end up in KDL on boot from CD.

Have you reported a ticket for that?

Hi, it was long time ago but I think I posted about it on forum. IIRC I had problems with TRAC back then, like now. But the possible bug has a ticket now.

Re: Beta phase!

I kind of agree, taking too long, not keeping Haiku in the press with some new release info, no hardware that we know Haiku will run on so it is buy and hope for the best kind of approach, and it just seems like a stalled project with too little developers doing anything anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I understand it is a project that developers make Haiku in spare time it seems free of charge, but at the same time, it finally seems like our beloved BeOS that had become Haiku has so little contributors and news and updates it has become a project not many care about anymore.

I only keep an eye here on the forums because I still pimp a BeBox and have been hoping and dreaming one day Haiku would have a HaikuBox that is known to run Haiku 100% and could be used also to run other OSes while Haiku was being worked on.

Today it is still buy and hope Haiku works, too little, seeming too late.

I guess we can still dream of the BeOS glory days and tinker with Haiku but was hoping Haiku would be more than tinkering OS.

I still thank the people that made Haiku happen and for their hard work but I guess like anything, time and years puts things to rest, and things out of site become out of mind, and maybe that is what we are experiencing today with just a few soles still working on Haiku but just not enough to make something happen.

tj

Re: Beta phase!

Also, from where I am coming from, compare Haiku with other OSes and platforms of old like Atari and Amiga. Both Atari and Amiga have a vibrant following, new hardware and software still being made to this day.

Why is that? Is it because Atari and Amiga have know hardware that supports their favorite OS? On Atari you have individuals that have made the new Firebee computer that is actually getting in some folks hands these days and with Amiga, systems like SAM 460 and AmigaOne X1000.

Is it that these platforms have more "crazy ones" like the Apple commercials of old that really LOVE these platforms and Haiku/BeOS just had too little?

Or do these other platforms make it because they have unique hardware that the OS is made to work on, even if outdated to some degree, but keeps these platforms alive.

Would a HaikuBox that developers can develope Haiku for that at the same time runs other modern OSes be what it takes to keep Haiku moving forward?

I know I would buy a system that is made to run my specific OS of choice like Haiku yet can run some Linux distro to get us though when we need something today not yet available for Haiku.

Give something tangible Haiku can sell to us and money can be made to help make Haiku better. Without something to sell us, I think it has just stalled project with not enough people to do anything anymore.

TJ

Re: Beta phase!

Get the fact: chrome is version 19 nowadays, firefox 12, MacOSX 10.x.bla.bla.. in almost ten year Haiku is still R1 alpha 3. GCC is 4.7.0 and Haiku uses a version 20 years old to keep compatibility with a piece of software written for BeOS 20 years ago.. And perhaps it is a text editor or stuff like this..
When I find Haiku I thought it could have helped me get rid of GNU/Linux, in a year we are where we were. I appreciate the work of developers, what is missing is a plan. A plan can help new devs to get involved. A plan can help Haiku to get attention. Let's say, a release every year, every year a task: R1, internet, reduce number of critical bug and improve BFS stability. R2, from GCC2 to GCC4 or LLVM/Clang or whatever and package manager. R3, office and a complete browser. R4, video and audio drivers. R5, bluetooth, DVB and a project of a media center. In five years there would be a new OS. Today is: for R1 we need stability, but also internet is lacking, and what about a pkgmanager? Yes, we need a browser and office, and also video drivers.
R1 tasks changed three times since I'm following Haiku.. it doesn't help.

Re: Beta phase!

For me at least the alpha releases should happen more frequent. One month ago, there was the intuition/feeling that the alpha release would happen any next days, and now a month past and it's still not here. I was awaiting it, and not continuing work on the documentviewer in the idea, that i better wait till alpha4 is released, so that i dont need to setup my machine twice.

The problem is, that there are also no information about the delays, so that one could understand it, and to be able to know approximately how long the delay will be.
Somehow it's the feeling of waiting in the darkness.
the communication could be really better...
and at least on the google+ haiku-page one could give more informations, if it is not desired to put such kind of informations on the front page of haiku.

Re: Beta phase!

I agree with the general sentiment here that the project does seem dead. It may not be the case, but that's what it looks like to an outsider. It's bad enough that ALPHA versions are being released only once a YEAR, but it's been almost 14 months now with no real news on the next alpha or beta stage. And let's be honest, as cool as Haiku is, it's been in development for what, 12 years? And it still is not in beta.

With no news on the web site or anywhere and no communication on what's wrong, what is good, any plans, additions, etc... there's just dead silence.

What incentive is there is there for developers to waste their time developing for a seemingly dead OS? There isn't. You're getting yourselves into a vicious cycle of abandonment by not offering any communication with the userbase

Re: Beta phase!

I guess I don't quite understand what more can be done.

The goals for R1 are on the wiki and haven't changed much as I understand it. I use the RSS feed on the homepage to recieve updates from the developers. New working versions of Haiku are released nightly, and I update my installation every few days. I follow the developer mailing list to read some interesting discussions and advancements. If I wanted more information, the homepage has a rolling feed of bug reports / fixes and source code changes.

Many things have advanced in Haiku over the past year, including wifi support, modern Radeon video card support, printer support, and web browsing support. There has been a lot of work on integrating many Qt applications, although that doesn't interest me very much.

What more would you like the Haiku developers to do or talk about?

Re: Beta phase!

Problem is, to me, that there's not a plan. Keep on adding things on R1, and R1 becoming more and more distant in time, that's what I'm noticing. Still there's going to be a Alpha4, whose date is not known. Then there will be a beta release, perhaps it will take a year or so. And then another beta maybe, and a RC, and so on. Haiku R1 will be release in 2015 maybe, and it will be again outdated. And devs number will be the same, if not fewer.
All I ask is this: http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.9_Release_Schedule
and this: http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.9_Feature_Plan
Proceed at little steps, development will be easier, because you don't have to complete 25 task at a time, and Haiku will gain in popularity.
When I see Ubuntu releasing a new version, I always give it a try. Let's say in six months you pass from R1 to R2, bloggers, journalists, hobbyist, students would say: "Hey, let's see how's it going". If in 14 months you pass from alpha3 to alpha4, I don't think everyone cares, the thoughts are "well, let's wait for the stable release"..

Re: Beta phase!

I think for launching Haiku there is a first TODO list that should be satisfed:

- all NVidia drivers & other drivers included
- Firefox
- a bootloader that support to switch between windows and Haiku (installed by the installer)
- BEOS Partition creation on an empty space

Re: Beta phase!

oueshcousin wrote:

I think for launching Haiku there is a first TODO list that should be satisfed:

- all NVidia drivers & other drivers included

No NVidia's specification are not available so it would consume many developer resources for a small improvement since Haiku does not have accelerated 2D/3D.
VESA is enough.

oueshcousin wrote:

- Firefox

Porting Firefox is too much work and Webkit/Webpositive is quite good + Alexandre is going to work on it.

oueshcousin wrote:

- a bootloader that support to switch between windows and Haiku (installed by the installer)

Already done! You may install Haiku BootManager, boot on an USB drive or you can "chainload" Haiku from Grub2 or Nt_Loader.

oueshcousin wrote:

- BEOS Partition creation on an empty space

Already done! Just use DriveSetup! (Linux fdisk also does the job)

Re: Beta phase!

Get the fact: chrome is version 19 nowadays, firefox 12, MacOSX 10.x.bla.bla.. in almost ten year Haiku is still R1 alpha 3. GCC is 4.7.0 and Haiku uses a version 20 years old to keep compatibility with a piece of software written for BeOS 20 years ago.. And perhaps it is a text editor or stuff like this..

I can't even begin to explain how wrong this is.

Version numbers mean jack all. Look at Firefox 4-12 for example. There's hardly any noticeable difference between consecutive versions, because of the rapid release cycle Firefox changed to. If you compare Firefox 3.0 with Firefox 4.0, you'll see a world of difference. Let's look at Windows now: Windows 95 has an internal version number of 4.0, Windows 2000 has an internal version number of 5.0, and Vista has an internal version number of 6.0. You can't tell me that the progress between versions of Windows is comparable to versions of Firefox.

Onto the compatibility argument. For any OS to be successful, it needs applications. Like it or not, Haiku is a reimplementation of BeOS, and as such, is required to be compatible with BeOS applications. The downside to this requirement is that it needs to support a rather outdated version of GCC (by 12 years, much shorter than your 20 years, which actually predates the public release of BeOS by about 5 years anyway). If you don't like it, use a GCC4 nightly, but don't come moaning to the devs when none of your applications work. The official releases are GCC2/4 hybrids anyway, so apps can be written and executed for either GCC version anyway. (WebPositive being a good example of a GCC4 application).

Re: Beta phase!

The123king wrote:

I can't even begin to explain how wrong this is.

Version numbers mean jack all. Look at Firefox 4-12 for example. There's hardly any noticeable difference between consecutive versions, because of the rapid release cycle Firefox changed to. If you compare Firefox 3.0 with Firefox 4.0, you'll see a world of difference. Let's look at Windows now: Windows 95 has an internal version number of 4.0, Windows 2000 has an internal version number of 5.0, and Vista has an internal version number of 6.0. You can't tell me that the progress between versions of Windows is comparable to versions of Firefox.

Onto the compatibility argument. For any OS to be successful, it needs applications. Like it or not, Haiku is a reimplementation of BeOS, and as such, is required to be compatible with BeOS applications. The downside to this requirement is that it needs to support a rather outdated version of GCC (by 12 years, much shorter than your 20 years, which actually predates the public release of BeOS by about 5 years anyway). If you don't like it, use a GCC4 nightly, but don't come moaning to the devs when none of your applications work. The official releases are GCC2/4 hybrids anyway, so apps can be written and executed for either GCC version anyway. (WebPositive being a good example of a GCC4 application).

I was thinking about an answer, all I have to answer on your first part is: and so what? Do you think that Firefox decided to begin crazy numbering cause they were tired? or because people is dumb and want to hear high version number? Above all Haiku needs attention: pubblic attention, dev's attention and perhaps one day software house attention. We're not talking about a lib, that can be version 0.0000018 and none cares. We're talking about an OS..
Second part: I thought that Haiku was meant to take the "inheritance" of BeOS and taking it further. Do Haiku want to have a wider user base? Well, you cannot think that people using GNU/Linux, or Windows, or MacOSX will try apps that were written almost ten years ago.
Then, if Haiku wants only to become the clone of BeOS, and this will take three years more, sorry, I misunderstood everything in my life. If, let's say, in one year Haiku devs will release a R1, how can I advice my friends to try an OS that has not a real plan for a better R2 in few times and how can I tell them to play with an almost incomplete browser, no office app, no drivers, some old audio tools, almost no recent vlc release?
Anyway, perhaps I'm not talking a good enough english for people to comprehend me, so, here's what I'm asking:
R1: drivers, wpa, pkg manager, documentation. Release Jenuary (of an imaginary year 1).
R2: switch to GCC4, complete web browser, initial release of office. Release June (year 1)
R3: complete office, x64 initial support (don't know what else). Release January (year 2)
And so on. Here's what I'm seeing:
R1: complete web browser, complete drivers, initial office, stability, documentation, initial GCC4 switch, works on ARM, pkg manager, wpa, java.. Release don't know when.
Wouldn't it be easier? Make a plan, take new and old devs, work on feature, release. I'm not asking the moon, I don't care if there will be 14 release in 7 years to have a complete and stable OS, but at least when I'm following blogs, web sites, forums about Haiku I could always see where it is and where it is going.
Am I crazy or what? I follow loads of projects, everyone works like this, from text editor to KDE, from web browser to linux kernel.

EDIT: only Debian has a slow release cycle but, ok, they have a huge user base and a huge attention..

Re: Beta phase!

franz1789 wrote:

I'm asking:
R1: drivers, wpa, pkg manager, documentation. Release Jenuary (of an imaginary year 1).
R2: switch to GCC4, complete web browser, initial release of office. Release June (year 1)
R3: complete office, x64 initial support (don't know what else). Release January (year 2)
And so on. Here's what I'm seeing:
R1: complete web browser, complete drivers, initial office, stability, documentation, initial GCC4 switch, works on ARM, pkg manager, wpa, java.. Release don't know when.
Wouldn't it be easier? Make a plan, take new and old devs, work on feature, release. I'm not asking the moon, I don't care if there will be 14 release in 7 years to have a complete and stable OS, but at least when I'm following blogs, web sites, forums about Haiku I could always see where it is and where it is going.
Am I crazy or what? I follow loads of projects, everyone works like this, from text editor to KDE, from web browser to linux kernel.

EDIT: only Debian has a slow release cycle but, ok, they have a huge user base and a huge attention..

When you install Haiku on real hardware( sometimes impossible - http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/7665 ). You can see a cool, fast and classic operating system. With potential. But Haiku has serious lacks in every place. Many people are not able to connect to the Internet. How look the application to configure Internet connection?

All of this is needed to do.

Users do not come to us, just because you change a number.

For me it is a sick, that a small change gets a major version number( Chrome, Firefox).

Haiku development will accelerate after relase of planned R1. Because all of the important things, will be already.

Re: Beta phase!

the big problem for me is also the same problem BeOS (freakn') 12 years ago. lack of software, lack of drivers, and lack of motivation from the people behind it. i loved BeOS, and i love Haiku a3, but if i can't do anything with it (i do use it to watch videos on my dell mini 10, since win7 is too slow), it's not worth anything.

priorities for drawing interest:
- a more up to date set of common network and graphics drivers.
---- get chugging on WPA/WPA2. that's a big detractor.
---- the more systems it's able to run on without resorting to VESA mode the better
---- lots of people have an intel gma500 based netbook, and more are still being made, that should actually be an easy boost in usable systems. case in point, this one really tickles my sidekick fancy http://www.dynamism.com/top-notebooks/highton-mi15.shtml
---- [i don't know if my mini10's wifi card (dell wireless 1520 802.11n) uses a standard chipset or not, so i won't use that as an example, and you already seem to support the realtek gig-e in it just fine.]
- get people to port Gimp, Inkscape and either LibreOffice or OpenOffice
---- gobe productive was nice for it's time, but seriously?
---- abiword is also nice, but it's only a word processor, a full suite is definitely needed
- [later, but not too much later] touchscreen

Re: Beta phase!

Here is my 2 cents worth.

I don't want to be trying to run 10yr old stuff on Haiku, I want to be using new stuff. Yes you need software to get users but I can tell you I did not start using Haiku because of any of the current software(ok read 10yr old programs) I came because I see the potential of Haiku.

What is going to kill that potential is if the devs want to wait and wait till every thing is perfect before making another stable version. When I read a msg about someone trying Haiku because of the IEEE article like I did and they load the Alpha and their video card is not supported and luckily the person asked about what he could do and was told to load a nightly and tada his video card is supported in the nightly but now he has to load a browser and such, I am thinking that an updated Alpha is WAY PAST DUE.

I think there needs to be a plan laid out, I like what franz1789 put down. I wouldn't call it R1 but B1, but there has to be some movement forward. I have been part of some major software/hardware implementations and we started with a basic plan and modified it as we went in some instances(hardware not available or software still be fixed) right up until we put the system live. There where a lot of problems to fix after it went live but we had to put something up so others could do their work and start using the system.

Since I am new here, who are the people/person that decide to ok a new version? Right now I don't see anyone person I could chat/email with on why it is not going forward.

Re: Beta phase!

Just an idea -- but if Haiku was only 'supported' on a very specific set of hardware, similar to what MorphOS does, and there was funding available to give every Haiku Developer that particular hardware, I'm sure it would smooth a lot of things out. However, Haiku is expected (by the community) to run on every piece of hardware out there and that is a *lot* of work.

Also, I'd deprecate GCC2 just for simplicity's sake. Sure, it allows users to run older software. However, how much regression-testing is done to make sure every ancient-closed-source-commercial-application still runs properly? I can only imagine how much of a nightmare it is to keep everything kosher.

I do agree on the planning part. I imagine they have one. I also imagine (well, hope) they follow some sort of an iterative style of development if they work as a tight-knit team. Just because their nightly builds aren't labeled with some fancy version number doesn't mean nothing is getting done and they aren't following a plan.

Also, I noticed that Haiku only expects to get around $33k for the year. I'm *sure* on that budget there aren't many (if any?) full-time Haiku developers. Therefore, I imagine most developers working on Haiku are strictly volunteers and work in their spare time. If most are actually just volunteers, then I have to admit they are doing a fantastic job at pulling this together.

Re: Beta phase!

Since the Haiku developers are currently preparing for the next Haiku release (alpha 5 or beta 1), it might be worthwhile for the development team to consider some of the opinions expressed in this old thread, because it appears not much has changed in 2 years, except now we have even fewer users than before.
How many of the people who posted in this thread are still with us?
Having a couple of articles published about Haiku once every 14 months is hardly conducive to keeping Haiku in the public eye and attracting more potential users and developers.
I am hoping that the next release, whatever they decide to call it, is worthy of grabbing some much needed attention. They really need to include more polished applications for the release, and put some of the stuff that is clearly not ready for prime time out of sight, until they are ready.

Re: Beta phase!

The state it's in is moving anyway. I've seen a lot of progress happen on haiku in the last couple of months alone. These guys are also working as a hobby in their spare time, with exception to the contracts. And apparently they are nice enough to make it free.

I fail to see how people can seriously want more for nothing and think to be taken seriously. Could be worse, they could charge for it?

What I guess I'm getting at here is, they started the project to make a compatible os. They want to hit that target that's fine with me. They started it anyway and did the work. Which btw, is a hell of a lot of work to do exactly that. Outside of the occassional issues here and there, it's running pretty well from what I can tell at least on my hardware. Outside of NVIDIA and that's understandable. Wish they would just open some info up on that already like they said they would. Just not enough info to grok the final drivers being released though.

And I don't mean any of this in an ill will, etc. I just find it strange. If you want more information look in on the dev mailing list. You can read the discussions, etc there too. It's pretty informative.

Re: Beta phase!

I guess I just don't get it.

Just now when in the last few months more work (package management, web kit and wifi) has happened than I have seen in a long time you declare the project dead.

Finally the project is getting ready for a beta release and you say it is going nowhere.

You want (like so many others) that the devs absolutely drop the BEOS compatibility. I don't get that either. The BEOS apps is all we have! Once we drop that and we release the OS people will start looking for software to run on it.

If het project is finally able to do an official release it better be working, which is currently not the case yet (have you actually tried to get HAIKU working on real hardware?) Yes this is a big project done by a small amount of people en therefore, yes it's going slow.

I too am often frustrated by the slow pace of the project but the timing of your rant really bothers me. BTW alpha 4 has been released some time ago (time to get up to date with the status of the project I think).

Re: Beta phase!

If you take the time to read the FAQ you would see that they have a kind of plan. I call it 'kind of' since the milestones that they want to reach are clear but the timing is not.

I think this is perfectly reasonable. They have put themselves a goal: make a binary compatible version of BEOS. They now quite well what they need to do for this (look at the tickets in the bug tracker) but since the work is mainly done by volonteers it is hard to put a timing on it.

If there are some donations or using the GSOC applications sometimes a considerable amount of progress can be archieved (like e.g. when Java support was added!). But nothing is definite.

I, just like anybody else, am hoping the next release will be Beta 1 instead of alpha 5 but really you have to understand that if you release a beta it will attract some attention. So it better be worth it.

As for the constant moaning about the compatibility with BEOS (not only by you but by almost any poster on this thread). What is the big problem with BEOS compatibilty? I always hear user complaining about it but never developers. So that means that it doesn't stand in the way of the current development. So what's the problem then? Just like this GCC business. What do you care about the kind of compiler is used? Also I gather that they have a hybrid build system in which you can use the version you like most. And the system runs apps that are build with either. So what's the trouble all about then?

The support is there. It's done. The developers are now working on other stuff. So what could be gained by dropping support apart from diminishing the already very small software base?

Re: Beta phase!

Hey, it's obvious that a "beta" release would attract some more attention than yet another alpha. The question is not there. The question is, are we ready for that? With our previous alpha releases, we have had some people review the OS, thest things around, and most of the time, these reviews end in the line of "these guys are on to something, but the lack of hardware support and/or apps make the OS not suitable for production use yet. Let's see where they go, it's just alpha after all".

The last thing we want is sticking the "beta" tag (or even worse, R1) on a release that isn't actually beta quality. Yes, everyone has high expectations on beta and R1, but just sticking the name on it won't magically fix all the bugs. We are still just out of the PM and Scheduler merges, and there are a lot of things to clear out. HaikuDepot isn't really ready for prime time, do you suggest we drop it from the image? To make sure people continue going on Haikuware and end up saying "too bad, most of the software on that site doesn't work"? Or messing with the command-line pkgman to install packages? This is not the experience we want to provide. Same for the several causes of kernel panics, and the currently glitchy web browser, and some annoying bugs in Terminal, and I could go on and on. Yes, we could remove all these apps from the image, pack up the things that are "done", and call it beta. But then, people would say "these guys have no software", and leave. Instead, we want to actually fix all those annoying bugs, and get a very good release out. This is work we will have to get done anyway, and if we rush R1 out, you all know what will happen: after two months, we will be telling people to use the nightlies, or R2alpha1, or whatever experimental release.

This is not what we want: we want an R1 that will last for years, so the developers can focus on adding the new and shiny features to R2, instead of bugfixing R1 and releasing updates to it. With the package manager, we are moving some of the R1 maintenance efforts to the community: you will be able to replace packages with newer versions easily, so the system doesn't get too much outdated. There are ongoing efforts to remove some code from the main haiku repo and turn it into packages (mostly the command-line tools, but also some libraries).

Re: Beta phase!

SomeoneFromBelgium wrote:

I guess I just don't get it.

Just now when in the last few months more work (package management, web kit and wifi) has happened than I have seen in a long time you declare the project dead.

Finally the project is getting ready for a beta release and you say it is going nowhere.

You want (like so many others) that the devs absolutely drop the BEOS compatibility. I don't get that either. The BEOS apps is all we have! Once we drop that and we release the OS people will start looking for software to run on it.

If het project is finally able to do an official release it better be working, which is currently not the case yet (have you actually tried to get HAIKU working on real hardware?) Yes this is a big project done by a small amount of people en therefore, yes it's going slow.

I too am often frustrated by the slow pace of the project but the timing of your rant really bothers me. BTW alpha 4 has been released some time ago (time to get up to date with the status of the project I think).

I'm not sure who exactly is being addressed in some of these comments, especially since it is a long thread, and there are some strong sentiments being expressed. Also consider that the thread was started about six months prior to the alpha 4 release.
Myself, I have 5 different PC's that I am using to test Haiku on real hardware. Recently my wife told me to try f****** my computer since that is where I seem to be spending most of my free time after work every day. I really don't see anything here which could be called a "rant".

Re: Beta phase!

"HaikuDepot isn't really ready for prime time, do you suggest we drop it from the image?"

The package manager is not what I had in mind when I made the statement about "prime time". It is already in a useful, but incomplete state and needs to be included for testing and further development. I was thinking more about some of the apps that have limited functionality or poor support i.e. codycam and TV.

Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.

"The last thing we want is sticking the "beta" tag (or even worse, R1) on a release that isn't actually beta quality."

"...we want to actually fix all those annoying bugs, and get a very good release out".

These releases aren't just test platforms, but are also a showcase of the operating system and its capabilities. With each new release, the reviews are going to be less forgiving than before. Until package management is mostly complete, and the rendering issues in Webpositive are sorted out, it would probably be unwise to call it a beta (just my opinion!).