Deciding for Haiku R2
Haiku is getting closer and closer to R1, which is great. But unless we (you..=) know where we want to go with R2, the project will come to a stand-still after R1 completion. Also, if there's no strong will and direction from the core members before R1 completion, there's a risk of branching, which is something we don't want.
So maybe I'm just out of the loop, and there's already a strong vision for R2, but in that case, then all of us "bystanders" are out of the loop, because there's nothing on the website, and the glass elevator mailing list is just a stream of suggestions, no compilation of ideas or something cohesive.
Now, I'm EXTREMELY interested in taking the GUI of Haiku one step further than what we have today. For example, ditching the whole desktop metaphore is tempting and worth looking into. That Mezzo paper was interesting, but not complete. Lots of ideas on the mailing list are cool.
So, is there any actual WORK being done for the GUI design? Because you know guys, it's not gonna happen unless someone actually sits down and get some mockups working. Those could be done on Haiku/BeOS, Linux, paper or even something like GameMaker. Just something that is one step up from just a concept.
Maybe the plan is to use R1 for this, and have a period of testing and designing on the actual platform before decisions will be made, but I don't think there is any reason to wait with design work.
One last thing, are you looking for more team members to do design work? If so, I'm definately interested. Im finishing up a game design program at university level soon, so I'm probably gonna be unemployed after that =). Which means lots of time for Haiku.
Anyways, tell me what you think, and please update me on the whole design team status.
/Joel
Comments
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
so after 10+ days, what you're basically saying is "fuck you"?
kk
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Joel,
Just because no response you shouldn't take it personally.
The developers ( coders ) & admins use the mailing lists. I almost never see any posts from them on the forums.
For some reason they don't like to use forums. Forums are mostly here for *end users*. Only people that actually seem to use them.
And lately I've seen less & less people posting on here.
Maybe everybody is busy with their lives or maybe I missed something ( something go down I'm not aware of? ).
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
What tonestone said.
I may add my 2 cents, though I'm just an (future) enduser.
Doing away with the desktop metaphor, enter a new paradigm, redesign the way humanity interacts with computers is a blurry vision that has come up regularly in the past and will again in the future. As of now it hasn't happened.
Not that it never will, it just seems to be exceptionally difficult.
To develop such a system needs a scientific approach, with prototypes and test groups, analysis, tweaking, re-testing... etc. All very time and money consuming. And in the end all the small details have to come together to have one consistent system that offers enough benefits for endusers to unlearn what they know and embrace change.
I could imagine that bigger corporations that do throw buckets of money into such R&D will come up ahead of the open-source free-time projects like Haiku. Traditionally OS projects excel at implementing known concepts (and sometimes evolve those to be better than their ancestors).
So, I'm skeptical that Haiku will come up with a revolutionary breakthrough. Definitely not for R2. A steady evolution of our current desktop is more likely.
However, that shouldn't hold any dedicated creative group back to experiment and try out stuff. A ton of fun, I'm sure, and if they do come up with the "Holy Grail", immensely important for the whole computing world (considering Haiku's MIT license compared to what will happen when M$ or Apple find it first...). A branching to take such a completely different direction seems inevitable. I see nothing wrong with that.
But, once again, this is just little me and not the Haiku dev-collective. :)
Humdinger
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Hi!
Why don't you have a look at the design & usability team? I could imagine they could always need enthusiastic people like you, and it seems to be the right team for discussing your ideas with. Their mailing list seems to be quite active.
Cheers
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Replacing the existing desktop metaphore with something else, that is equally (un?)intuative, and has equally many pros and cons, shouldn't be very hard. Finding the Holy Grail though, is as your say probably extremely difficult, and requires alot of R&D money. But simlpy moving forward shouldn't be that hard IMHO.
I'm not saying that we need to replace it either, but there doesn't seem to be any clear answer or vision as it is now, and IF it would be decided, you can bet that it will affect alot of things, not just the shell. For example the FileSystem could very well need a complete rewrite. Who knows? It all depends on the idea.
I've been checking out #haiku for a couple of days now as tonestone said, but was pretty shot down when I said that it's time to start work on R2, and I didn't get any answer at all on who is doing work in that area, who to contact, what ideas are in the pipeline etc. It was pretty disheartening and I feel that I'm being treated as an outsider. Me coming here and talkin crazy about your pet project.. I can understand it, but it's not a great way to reqruit members to your team..
My stance is still, even after talking to some high profiles on #haiku, that it's high time to start work on R2 design, so that right after R1 is completed, there will hopefully be a clear vision and a concept. This is pretty much needed for tech-work to continue also, unless Haiku is supposed to keep its current shell.
What was BeOS if not a fresh take? BeOS always felt like that smart OS that wasn't held down by old thinking, and following the discussions around openBeOS and eventually Haiku, i felt that it was that freshness that lead to the project being started. But now the old farts have begun to move on (with Vista and OSX, even though they're not all that, it is something), and Haiku is now, what? Retro?
To be perfectly honest, Haiku is completely uninteresting if R2 isn't bringing something new.
That was quite a rant, but when I clicked reply, what I really wanted to ask was just, again: Who should I contact? and What's the status on the design?
Not trying to piss anyone off
Joel
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Hey Joel!
Well, if others are (necessarily) focused on R1, it's time for you to become an active Haikusa and change the system from within. :)
The way I see it, you won't go far discussing R2 without concrete examples of what you like to see. So, the first step is to formulate your ideas in detail. I suggest joining the Creative Team ( http://haiku-os.org/about/teams/usability_design ) and begin a blog where you present your ideas in-depth with mock-ups or prototypes and discuss and extend them with others.
There will come the time when the project is looking for ideas for R2 and will be grateful for detailed suggestions as inspiration. IMO Having a well thought out and over time refined presentation is more compelling then a few posts on a mailinglist or soon-forgotten IRC session.
Humdinger
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Joel,
If you want to reach the developers you have to use the mailing lists. I personally check these forums only once every month or so.
It's a good idea to bring some initial work. To be truly successful within Haiku you need to understand and agree with the BeOS/Haiku user/development community. Strong-arming ideas generally does not work. (See recent discussion on handing out demo CDs.) You need to build things. Usually in code. Stuff that works in BeOS, e.g. not Flash or Java based.
I know for certain that many of the core developers, especially Jon (DarkWyrm), are very much interesting in evolving the user interface. The "BeOS R5" goal is necessary to focus development and get a release out. Developing/debugging the core parts of the OS is simply taking a *lot* of time. We're postponing design-breaking changes. It's simply a matter of priorities. First R1, then R2.
Don't let this stop you from building prototypes, but understand that we can't make BeOS-incompatible changes mid-way to R1 or devote developer resources to making revolutionary changes (to the kernel, app_server, api, ..) that don't push on towards release 1.
Anyway, I hope you won't feel unwelcome. I look forward to seeing your work!
Regards,
Jonas.
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
I've *got* to check the forums more often. I would certainly be interested in hearing some of your thoughts on R2's interface. At this point, anyways, most of these kinds of discussions take place on the Glass Elevator mailing list. Perhaps you and I can stir some discussions which actually go somewhere instead of in circles and going nowhere.
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Old BeOS user and long time lurker here. It seems like there is a disconnect between the users and developers (not always a bad thing :-) ). Perhaps this is because there are multiple communication methods in place.
Most people on the user side of things will probably gravitate towards using the forums yet the developers seem to prefer using the mailing list. I believe there is even an IRC channel but that is a realtime chat tool.
My suggestion is to pick one method and use it. IMHO if you want to increase your user base then go with the forums.
Keep up the great work.
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of 64-bit computing. Haiku is a media oriented OS and I think it would greatly benefit from a fully enabled 64-bit kernel and software. I think by the time R2 roles around 64-bit processors will be the majority of new CPU's being produced for the desktop. Also, especially since Haiku is starting from scratch and no major media intensive games or software are available yet, it would increase the chance that future software will be natively developed for a 64-bit environment. The hardware is there so Haiku may as well use it to its advantage to give it even more of an edge on other OS's. I am not saying it should be a priority, just something to be worked into the timeline.
I've heard how modular the design for Haiku is like the former BeOS. Would it be possible to have two kernels for the same OS, one 32-bit and one 64-bit that can be used interchangably at the user's descretion so that you aren't forced into the Windows scenerio. Talk about branching! There are so many versions of Vista now I can't even keep track. What a cheap marketing stunt for an already filthy rich company. I just found out I can't get Vista to display German with the Premium version. Apparently, I need Ultimate or whatever to get the multi-lingual interface to work. Every other program can change languages without it being a big deal.
Just wondering people's thoughts on 64-bit.
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Well on the subject of 64-bit I agree there should be some sort of solution to accommodate it. I am currently a 64-bit user (dual boot with Vista and Ubuntu 64bit) so I think it's a great idea to have a 64 bit kernel in the future.
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Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
It makes me chuckle every time I see a user push for 64bit.
64bit does very little. It allows use of more than 4GB RAM which very few will take advantage of ( most people have 512MB to 2GB ). And 64bit OS gives at most 10-15% more performance on *certain* applications while others get 0-5%.
All ( or most ) of the computers sold today use 64bit processors. But the issue is that many users out there still have or use 32 bit computers because these have been selling for many, many years. It'll take a few years for 64bit processors to outnumber the 32bit processors sold out there.
Haiku could provide a 32bit & 64bit OS though it'll create additional work to maintain both. A 64bit only OS does not make sense right now or for some time.
If they have to go with one version then the logical choice is 32 bit OS. Sometime in 7 ( to 20 ) years this may change and we may start seeing many 64bit only OSes.
The advantages of 64bit are too little to move to a 64bit OS and neglect those using a 32bit computer. Developers could provide a 64bit version but the benefits are somewhat on the minimal side to do so. Making 32bit OS lets everyone with x86 use Haiku and those with 64bit processors may lose 5-10% performance overall ( no big deal ).
The real performance to be gained is through SMP. Haiku is optimized for SMP. So, dual & quad core processors will really benefit & you can expect amazing performance ( using Haiku you can expect 90 to 100% increase in performance per core versus single core ). SMP offers real performance whereas 64bit offers minimal performance increase at the cost of excluding 32bit computer users.
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
I do agree that smp is the greater advantage and that 64bit is too much for the project right now. It would be something to look at, like you said, over the next few years. Maybe it would be better off as an R4 or R5 feature. So long as it runs on my hardware (be it 32bit or 64bit OS) at some point in time I'll be happy.
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Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
AFAIK the idea is to focus everything on getting R1 polished. Then R2 will become a fork of R1 (E.g. Two seperate branches).
R1 will receive updates and fixes, and R2 will become the future of computing.
IMHO R1 needs to be out the door, and when it does the number of contributers will jump...
--
Mathew Schofield
"Show me someone perfect, and i'll show you an idiot."
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
IMHO R1 needs to be out the door, and when it does the number of contributers will jump...
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Once R1 is released it will be more stable and ready for everyday use and then the "Joe Users" will come in flocks (hopefully).
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Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
IMHO R1 needs to be out the door, and when it does the number of contributers will jump...
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Once R1 is released it will be more stable and ready for everyday use and then the "Joe Users" will come in flocks (hopefully).
More like "Moe Developers", but yeah ;-).
--
Mathew Schofield
"Show me someone perfect, and i'll show you an idiot."
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but R1 will not bring in tons of regular people. One thing I have learned from experience is that a regular user doesn't know or care what an OS is and doesn't like to change. Look at how long Linux has taken to get any significant desktop marketshare. Part of that is that it has had a steep learning curve until a couple of years ago, but part of it has been certain things being unavailable (wifi drivers, Flash, etc.) This is not to say that there won't be regular people using it and they are still part of the target audience, but I'd say that developers and vertical markets will probably be the main takers for R1. R2, if I have to say anything about it, will be the equivalent of OS X on the PC, but better.
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Well it might not be tons of regular people but I know it will bring some. I know a couple people who would be willing to use Haiku R1 but now they aren't interested because it's still not stable enough. Anyway hopefully a few "Joe Users" will sign up then maybe it will entice more developers to come on board because they will have a bigger audience to code for.
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Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
Would be nice if low budget machines like the Asus Eee were fully compatible with Haiku R1...and -in that case- to have the Haiku website point out such a fact.
A 'side machine' goes with what will be considered a 'side OS' by many Joe Users...it'll be a perfect balance of sexy niftiness in hardware and software; even Joe U. will sense that, especially in the ideal case where Haiku would be pre-installed and Joe gets it demo'ed in a store...
...I'll dream on now ;)
Re: Deciding for Haiku R2
A 'side machine' goes with what will be considered a 'side OS' by many Joe Users...it'll be a perfect balance of sexy niftiness in hardware and software; even Joe U. will sense that, especially in the ideal case where Haiku would be pre-installed and Joe gets it demo'ed in a store...
That would be pretty cool. If I had an actual storefront location I would definitely look into selling that sort of thing.
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