Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I wonder if everyone would agree keeping the menu layout is in the best interest of Haiku?
BeOS we know as a system came and went, also KDE in their early version of the 1.x desktops had this style of menu and that came and went, so I wonder, why would people think this will be a success when it wasn't in the past?
This style of menu layout is very old school.
I've been into Unix/Linux 10 years, I consider myself to be pretty hardcore and I'm overwhelmed with this style of menu. I never liked it in KDE when they first tried and I can't say I like it now any better. For the experienced users, it makes us feel like we've stepped back in time 10 years.
Each to his own as they say, after all we do drive different cars as the saying goes, have different likes, but one truth does remain, systems are popular for a reason and if it was a popular menu style then it would of never died off in the Unix world. The Haiku team should really stop and realize KDE had been down this road before and changed, this is not to say everything now about KDE is for the better, but they changed for a reason, it didn't work.
Windows, OS X, along with Unix/Linux and their Gnome and KDE desktops are all popular for a reason and Haiku should really start considering this when going on with this project. Look at the major players out there and what do you see? The vast majority of users, inexperienced and experienced are typically running, Windows, OS X, Gnome/KDE styles of desktops and then XFce is starting to make it's way into this market.
As an IT Tech, when I work with inexperienced users wanting to explore alternatives, there is one question they all ask first, will it be harder to use?
The truth is, this menu style might not be harder to use, once you get use to it, but there are a few facts that do remain, it has a cluttered look and it makes the menu look overwhelming and intimidating to the inexperienced.
Also inexperienced or experienced, another fact remains, you'll hardly find a user that cares for clutter on a operating system, most people like things to be simple and efficent and the menu in Haiku does not give the appearance of efficiency at all.
The one word that can truly summarize this menu is that it's to 'BUSY' looking. People are not drawn to busy. No where in the world of technology will you see busy winning people over. Computers, cellphone/pda, mp3 players, etc., not one of these types of devices has won over the market of consumers with an approach, or layout to busy.
On the contrary, smart marketing departments know that in this day in age, busy is best kept to the lifestyles and work places of the consumers, not in the layout of their devices, to help them manage their busy life.
I truly hope that the Haiku team will ditch this menu style and instead make a more friendly file explorer layout for searching through the Home/System files and diretories.
Here is a screenshot of the menu I took while running Haiku in VirtualBox.
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4720/82976499.jpg
I think the Haiku team has something really great going here, but only time will tell.
Comments
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Perhaps you're looking for something similar to "Seeker":
http://bebits.com/app/3158
AFAIK, it should work on Haiku, although I haven't personally tried it out.
The context menu to drill into file directories is not the only method you have to choose from - you can of course double click on a volume to open a "Tracker" window - from there you can alter its settings to add a navigation bar at the top and put it into single-browse mode.
The context menu feature is pretty damn handy as well, especially for copying/moving files. The "explorer" view with a tree on the side is one of my most-hated solutions, FWIW - and I never use that, even in Windows.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I'm not personally looking for anything. I just installed Haiku to check it out is all. I've been following it a little since it started and when I saw the Alpha came out I wanted to install it.
I'm just making an observation as someone that has been using Unix systems 10 years, that this menu layout is something old school and should be changed, to something more suited for a modern day OS.
Things of the past do help and help to show a way forward, but there comes a time when you also let go of the past and move forward, finding a more productive way.
This menu is simply not the way of the future, it's a step backwards...
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
This right cklick "menu" as you call it is the best feature of the BeOS / haiku Tracker. One can "drill" down quickly to any file on the system without having to open a Tracker window.
that this menu layout is something old school and should be changed
Old school you may call it. S W E E T is what I call it.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
What the? That's not really much of a menu. It's just a way of navigating the file system. And a VERY handy way of doing so too! Do you have a better suggestion? Simplifying the file system? Or removing the navigation option altogether? I have to agree with some of the comments here. I just can't see how this could be "old school and something that should be changed".. At least to me, it's one of the progressive features compared to other systems that make me want to use Haiku..
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
As the other's have said, I think this is just a shortcut feature that can be used in any Tracker window.
The real Haiku menu is on the leaf-button up in the corner :)
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
From your screenshot, I see what you mean: it looks a lot like some of the old X11 window managers, and must seem very inefficent. I don't think that menu is the way intended to start apps though. I only use that menu for moving or copying files, e.g. quickly copying a group of files from a directory to a sibling of that directory (e.g. /boot/home/projects/myfile to /boot/home/archive/myfile). For that use, the navigation menu is very useful.
I think the system management (settings and shutdown) part of the Haiku leaf menu is very well implemented. Personally I have never used it as a "Start" menu or changed any of the default apps listed there, but the functionality is there to use it in the same way you would a Windows Start menu.
I put most of my common apps on the desktop. It might be nice to have a quicklaunch type thing in the Deskbar as KDE has. There is "LaunchBox" included with Haiku, which is somewhat similar to XFCE panels. I don't use it personally, but it is much more capable than it first appears if you play with it a little. You can use it to create multiple panels etc and change the icon size. There is also a hot-key program called SpicyKeys that can start apps.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I really enjoy this kind of menu very much and find it very conveniant and cleverly made!
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I also REALLY like that menu... I fail to see how it would be confusing to noobs as well its just a menu with the file tree in it
also the real haiku menu is the leaf menu not this right click popup
I would also point out that I think the direction taken by KDE and Windows/vista and up is the wrong one... and such menus are quite cumbersome similar to how I can never find what I want in the categorized windows control panel and must always switch to 'classic' to get anything done
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I'm talking about when you right click the desktop and get the menu, as far as the leaf, I didn't spend much time digging through it so I don't know if it gave a menu the same.
Ok I'm open minded here, but I do know for a fact that in the Unix/Linux world this is a very old school menu concept, there is nothing new about this.
Also if it is popular, then does anyone know what other OS out there is using this? Personally I'm not aware of any Unix/Linux OS using this style of menu.
The point I was trying to make was if this was a clever way of doing things, a great idea then the top Unix/Linux development people would of adopted it, but they didn't, so think about that...
Let's take Natiulus as an example, with the 'Tree' menu to surf through. Navigation is navigation, click and go, it all happens in the same manner. Like as an example you want to surf to /usr/lib and then go a few directories deep into the /lib directory to look for something, then the end result is the same. In the explorer window or menu you're going to click your way till you get to where you want to go. Click and navigating will not happen any faster in an explorer window, or on a menu.
The efficency or speed isn't any better in one over the other, that's impossible, if someone thinks one is faster then the other, then please explain how that could be possible? It can't...
The other point I was trying to make was that there is no need for a menu like this thinking it's offering a better, clever way to do anything as far as just navigating to a /path, nothing else, just clicking and navigating to a point in the system. If you're thinking about other features the menu might offer, that's not what I'm on about here. I'm just talking about navigating by clicking and going to a path is all.
Also with this menu in Haiku I did not explore how deep it goes into the system, how many sub directories deep, but as an example when KDE first developed this before LCDs came on the scene, after the menu was spread out as far as it could go to the right, then it started it's way back to the left, just filling up the screen in both directions. Now if you want to talk about a screen full of mess that would take up your entire screen in both directions, this was the mother of all menu messes and that's what I'm talking about.
Try to imagine that, that this is the type of clutter it can become. As far as right now in the Alpha stage I have seen a few sections where the menu starts going back to the left for me because it is filled up as far as it can go to the right, because I'm using a CRT monitor.
Unless you've used KDE 1.x versions then you don't know what I'm going on about.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
The "main menu" is on the leaf button on the Deskbar, which has an applications menu, recent documents, and everything else you'd expect from an OS menu. The menu you are talking about is really a shortcut for opening Tracker, Haiku's file manager, quickly.
Personally, I don't see it as being confusing or unwieldy. The idea of the shortcut is to make browsing through an otherwise spatial file manager like Tracker be quicker and take less windows, and I think it succeeds at that purpose.
You're right that it is an old-school concept: Haiku's Tracker is taken from BeOS' tracker which was open-sourced as OpenTracker and has exactly the same functionality, and predated KDE by several years. I don't think you're going to be able convince anyone to change it considering the origin of Haiku, and I think your argument that only people who used KDE 1.x will know what you're talking about is extremely weak considering the number of former BeOS users around here.
I don't really see your comparisons with KDE 1.x being valid either: it's not supposed to be your primary way of opening files or applications unlike KDE 1.x, it's a shortcut in a lesser-used menu, and its use in KDE was especially illogical considering it didn't even use a spatial file manager.
Your comparison with Nautilus is also rather poorly-thought-out since by default it doesn't even have a tree menu - that's only in browser mode and the default is spatial. That said, some distributions like Ubuntu change the default, and you have to wonder why: perhaps without a shortcut similar to Haiku's spatial mode it's considered unwieldy.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I also REALLY like that menu... I fail to see how it would be confusing to noobs as well its just a menu with the file tree in it
also the real haiku menu is the leaf menu not this right click popup
I would also point out that I think the direction taken by KDE and Windows/vista and up is the wrong one... and such menus are quite cumbersome similar to how I can never find what I want in the categorized windows control panel and must always switch to 'classic' to get anything done
Direct access to the file system is confusing to a lot of people. I've worked in broadband support so I know :(
No offence, but it seems your entire argument is based on your own inability to understand and/or use the "modern" mode. It sounds like you're used to working with computers in one way and think everything else is bad. Don't get me wrong, I also grew up using the computers of the 90' and have been changing parts of Windows to classic mode. But I'm well aware that just because this is a good solution for me, doesn't make everybody else wrong :)
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
And in contrast, I grew up with Windows, and I was first introduced to Haiku's navigation feature about a year ago (Been using computers for over 10 years..) when trying out Haiku. While BeOS, that introduced the feature (I think?), may be old, that doesn't mean that its concepts are automatically less modern. I am used to the way it works in Windows and Linux, but I simply find this better.
What actually makes it so interesting, is that you need way less clicks to navigate, the subdirectories show up quicker, and without this feature there would be several occasions where you would have to open more windows even in order to do some simple file copying.
As well, if you don't like it, you don't have to use it. It's there, it's available, but it's just an extra feature that you can ignore if you want. On the other hand, some alternative ways of navigating could be added, including shortcuts and treeviews. I personally find shortcuts quite handy.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Old School ?
Because you've been using computers for 10 years ? Your not old enough to remember old school.
I've been writing software, fixing computers, and working as a tech, sys admin, for 30 years.
And this is in no way old, the right click desktop menu, which most people will never need to use, is simply a way to open folders or files from the desktop. And no other OS has that
I think your pretty confused about what a menu is
The normal, standard menu, is the leaf menu, as others have pointed out.
And the normal way of looking at folders, is to double click the drive or home icon
And then look at the folders as a square window, which is classic and simple, and very nice
The idea that Haiku should do something, because Linux does something, is the worst thing they could do. Linux is a failure any way you look at it. Old or new, past, present, or future
Its a free OS that still cant capture 10% of users in the world. How people can call that good in any way is beyond understanding
Thats like some billionaire building free cars, and giving them away, with free gas
And people still preferring to pay $20,000 for a crappy chevy
Just because a few homeless people take them, and live in them, would not mean the free cars are good in any way
I've been using Linux since before it had a desktop. And I cant stand it now any more then I could stand it then. Kde and every other desktop I have ever used is nothing but a colossal mess that you need a manual to understand
BeOS did not die because of its menu. And BeOS in its short life, had way more users for that amount of time, then Linux might ever have
I am glad to see that Haiku has updated or re-thought the file system enough to make a real system folder instead of playing the BeOS/User double tree system. I think that was a great idea
But as far as the menu system goes, with all due respect, I dont think this guy even knows what a menu system is
Microsoft has played the "lets change the programs menu game" every time we release a new version of Windows, game, way to often now
It is THE most confusing part of Windows, and really makes helping users hard.
Doing support, I often have to guide users to and through control panel, to help them with a problem, which these days means, I have to ask, what do you have, XP, Vista, Win 7, ?
ok, go here, go here, ok, now are you showing classic icons ? or are you looking at descriptions, etc etc etc, ok now go here, ok what do you see, etc etc etc
It would be so much easier if Windows stuck to the same menu, and classic control panel icons, for each new OS
The point being, change in any way is a disaster, some people like the old start menu, some people have never even seen the old start menu. Some people like the new XP start menu. Some people are using the new Vista start menu. And I have to know or guess at every single thing over the phone or through email. When talking to a noob, it can take a half hour just to help someone find the control panel
Haiku should remain as simple as can be. if someone wants to build and release a new tracker, or custom tracker, then great, let them do so
But Haiku should stay true and simple, the developers need to focus on drivers more then anything else at this point. Not trying to please every person who has a half hearted idea about this widget or that window. This girl will say windows should be pink, that guy will say the background should have flames. This group will say icons should be animated. That group will say people with only 2 fingers should have easier mouse access
The couple of things that be did, that made BeOS less generic, should be fixed. But other then that the OS should stay generic as possible. If I could change one thing, I would make the mouse pointer a clean and clear pointer, instead of a sloppy looking hand. But other then that, Haiku looks great, unbelievably great ! And the right click expanding desktop menu is a great way to get deep into the file system without clicking 1000 times, or having 1000 open windows on your desktop. Plus, while you leave it up, you can see or trace the complete tree, so you can remember how you got somewhere
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
On re-thinking that
I have noticed, Haiku has included something new, that BeOS did not have
And I do agree, that part is extremely redundant and busy
I'm not even sure what its called, but when you do the right click, and then follow out a menu or tree. there is a point, where you can see a redundant tree
A part where the menu shows the top or root ? or desktop or something
Basically showing a part of the tree most users will never use or need to see
BeOS did not have this, and it does make the tree look sloppy and busy
Maybe this is what the poster was talking about ?
That one part, that Haiku has added, does seem to be one mistake that was made
Either way, on another side note, enough of this, if Linux doesn't do it, Haiku shouldn't do it. When are people going to realize. Linux sucks ?
Seriously, Windows Sucks, Linux sucks. Mac sucks, BeOS was the greatest
In its sadly short life time, it was 10 times the OS any of those are or ever were
I use Linux, and have a great respect for it, but I would never tell my mom or neighbor to use it, its sloppy, messy, over blown, cant run crap, has no software, has games from 1960, software thats a pain to use, with the stupidest names you could never think of. Ugly desktops, ugly coursers, messy menus, 50 ways to do 1 thing, etc etc etc etc
I hate Windows and Microsoft with all my heart and soul
But at least it's usable, and can run the newest games and business software
And it doesn't have a directory structure that would confuse Einstein
Ubuntu is making awesome headway, but Linux is still a lame dog at best
While Windows is a St Bernard, nice but slow and huge
Haiku, has the chance to be a greyhound in its prime
Just get those drivers out, so more people can start using it
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Old School ?
Because you've been using computers for 10 years ? Your not old enough to remember old school.
I've been writing software, fixing computers, and working as a tech, sys admin, for 30 years...
I never said anything about old school in my post, in case it was me you were replying to in this part of your post.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Old School ?
Because you've been using computers for 10 years ? Your not old enough to remember old school.
I've been writing software, fixing computers, and working as a tech, sys admin, for 30 years...
I never said anything about old school in my post, in case it was me you were replying to in this part of your post.
Sorry, no, I was referring to the original poster
He calls it old school, but goes on to say he has been working with computers for only 10 years, I would hardly call that long enough to refer to anything as old school
Thats like a 10 year old, thinking he knows everything about life
Windows 3.1 might be close to old school, but 10 years ago Windows ME and 2000 were coming out
Even XP is 9 years old now
Anyway, no offense to anyone, I just get a little direct in posting
I barely have time to type, so its usually fast and sloppy
I just try to point out what I can, I hope I dont sound to rude
I just think its really important that Haiku make it, and in doing so, I think its really important that they stick to the original idea's behind BeOS
There are over 300 operating systems being used in the world today
Most people only know of 2 or 3, maybe 4
I have used at least 50 different OS's in my life time, and BeOS was the closest thing to perfect out of all of them. And no, that does not mean 49 flavors of Linux
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Sorry, I missed that part of his. Well then. :)
So I guess that means you didn't try all 300+ distros of Linux? ;)
But yeah, I agree. Haiku is the only OS I can see myself using in the future for other reasons than compatibility.. I use both Linux, Windows, and even ReactOS sometimes, for compatiblity, but Haiku is the real deal. ;)
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Direct access to the file system is confusing to a lot of people. I've worked in broadband support so I know :(
No offence, but it seems your entire argument is based on your own inability to understand and/or use the "modern" mode. It sounds like you're used to working with computers in one way and think everything else is bad. Don't get me wrong, I also grew up using the computers of the 90' and have been changing parts of Windows to classic mode. But I'm well aware that just because this is a good solution for me, doesn't make everybody else wrong :)
No it as about things being hidden withing a hierarchy that I can't see so I can't find what I want. It is better to organize things in a manner where they are visible and yet still organized in a reasonable manner the windows classic control panel wasn't organized really but at least you could remember spatially where things were
It is also worthwhile to note that it is slower to browse through all the modern windows control panel panes than to load all the control panel items and allow the user to find what they are looking for
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Modern mode, what is this?
I said I've been into Unix 10 years, not all of my computing years, that goes back to the early 80s.
There's a few things I've noticed as a Tech over the years, some look the other way when they see something they don't like, don't know or feel intimidated, but aren't bothered, then there are those that seem to be taking score and when enough negative comes against them, they throw up arms in frustration and want to ditch it and move on to something else. This is where I can see the menu standing in the way for some and loosing people.
Yes people will ditch Haiku that are newbies, in part, based on this, not completely the sole reason, but it will just be one of the pieces that breaks the camel's back, if you see what I'm saying here.
A better solution if it isn't to complicated would be to allow a user to change the menu layout.
Maybe the Haiku developers can give users a choice for menu layout options. One, a simple menu only showing applications, system and admin preferences, the basics like you find in Windows or Linux and then the advanced menu for those that prefer this menu view showing the systems direcs and folders, etc..
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I doubt that many beginner users use right-click menus.
The problem with adding options is that the cure can be worse than the disease. If the KDE project has proven only one thing over the past decade it's that adding lots and lots of user-configurable options doesn't lead to a sensible, well-thought-out, easy-to-use UI with sane defaults.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
@DasFox: I think you need to read this: http://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/deskbar.html
As halo said "The "main menu" is on the leaf button on the Deskbar, which has an applications menu, recent documents, and everything else you'd expect from an OS menu. The menu you are talking about is really a shortcut for opening Tracker, Haiku's file manager, quickly"
Uou can read more about the spatial shortcut menu here: http://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/tracker.html#navigating
Most people such as myself are not use to the spatial system, thus we change Haiku to the Single Window Navigation system. As the Haiku user guide put it: "You can set Single Window Navigation, i.e. a double-clicked folder doesn't open in its own window, but inside the already open window instead, replacing the view of it's parent folder. This is not the same as clicking while holding the OPT key, as described above, because you'll lose the per window saved position and size. "
At the same place it points out: "Before you switch Tracker to Single Window Navigation mode, because that may feel more familiar to you, we recommend giving the menu based browsing a try first, as that may actually work much faster for you after getting used to. On the other hand, single window browsing offers a Navigator where you can enter or copy&paste a path name and use back, forward and up buttons."
You can find more info about this here: http://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/tracker.html#tracker-preferences
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
It seems to met too that DasFox haven't figured out the difference between Deskbar menu (= 'Start'-menu) and desktops right-click menu: "One, a simple menu only showing applications, system and admin preferences, the basics like you find in Windows or Linux and then the advanced menu for those that prefer this menu view showing the systems direcs and folders, etc.." To me it seems that DasFox is describing the way things actually are currently in Haiku!
What he also might be referring to is an application menu as it is in linux desktops like Fluxbox or XFCE, where when You right-click on desktop You get a regular Deskbar-type of menu which is also very fast and not a bad idea (as a configurable option).
IMHO whether there is this quick browsing option on top of the right-click menu we are mostly all taking about here or not could be configurable in tracker, Deskbar or in whatever settings. So if I really, really hate it I could switch it off.
Having an excellent OS and desktop as BeOS was and being able to configure it to Your needs is not the same as having crappy GUI on top of bulky unix shell (like KDE/Kwin on top of X-windows on top of ksh or whatever...). Even BeOS had some tweaks and tunings done as time went by. Configurability is not a bad thing but it's not a miracle-tool that can make a turd look like a diamond. Nice disaster it was when it was decided to dumb-down Gnome and all the configuration was hidden in gconf database and there was no simple way to change things. Not a way to go.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
So as I read the original post I was thinking "hmmm, what could DasFox think is so wrong about the Deskbar menu?" Then I saw the screenshot.
Sorry, DasFox, but you are just CONFUSED. You have made an assumption that the Tracker right click menu is used for launching applications based on your knowledge of Linux right click desktop menus of the past. But this Tracker menu is totally and completely different than an application launcher. As many people have said it is a method of navigating the file system. It is also very useful and one of the favorite features of Tracker for many, many users, so there is basically no chance in hell it is going away.
Haiku is open to suggestions for improvement of the UI, but not if they are based on confusion or bad assumptions.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
No one is confused here, I thought I made it clear what I was talking about.
The 'Right Click Tracker Menu' as being clutter, it's HUGE, that's all.
So then later what I said is, maybe the Haiku team can have an option so that you either see it or you don't, like having a choice to get a 'Simple' tracker menu for new users and then an 'Advanced' tracker menu for those that like this...
Ok are we clear now? :)
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I never thought I'd see this long a thread on this topic...
What I can't fathom is, if anyone doesn't like the right-click-menu-navigating, why doesn't he simply ignore the first entry (+move/copy/link further down when invoked on a file) in the context menu and goes on with his traditional habits, i.e. clicking through folder after folder after folder until you're at your destination?
Personally, I love the feature and even have my home folder linked into Deskbar as a starting point for navigation so I don't need access to the Desktop.
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I think this is great, it shows people care, and new people are becoming involved
Sorry DasFox, but you are confused, It's easy to tell your point of view and lack of BeOS experience is clouding your judgment. Thats no put down in any way, glad to see new people taking interest. As you use it more, and get more accustomed to it, you'll realize why and how your confused
Like I said, Haiku has added to it, and that does make it look a little busy, if you used BeOS, you would find it cleaner and nicer. But haiku is in no way done yet. I do hope they will make it exactly like BeOS was, and not so busy
When the custom tracker was released for Be, I didnt like it as much, but used it because it had more options and features. I hope Haiku goes the same way, I hope they make the release simple and clean, and then let some other people make custom options
After they see whats good and whats not, they can add some options to Haiku in the next release. But right now they really need to concentrate on speed, simplicity, and drivers
So I hope they dont try to add or fix anything until that is done
Its great to have Haiku running on my computer again. I tried using BeOS max etc
But could not get behind that mess
One of Be's greatest points was it had nothing, I decided what I would add by downloading what I wanted, Nothing but the frame was included with the install. And Be themselves said, they will provide basic tools, email and web browser ect, and purposely keep them small, so other people could write grand programs and make money
They didn't want to play the M$ game, of making the OS, and trying to make everything that ran on the OS also
And that was great, Be came with a tiny browser, tiny email program etc
And then if you wanted more or better, you could download anything you needed from BeBits
Loading Haiku, and seeing it had 20 folders and programs already loaded, kind of put me off
Leave that for other people, let people write great programs, and sell them to make a living for themselves, while still giving people the basics, to get on the web, get email etc. I dont need a PDF program loaded. I dont need games or anything else. I f I want a game, I'll download it. If I ever need to open a PDF file ? I will download my choice of PDF program
People like me wont touch a PDF file with a 10 foot pole, so why make me have to uninstall programs I didnt ask for in the first place ?
A great idea, is simply make a CD or download, that has nothing but the basic OS
And make a second CD or download, that is filled with freeware and shareware
If Microsoft would have made Windows on 1 CD, and then had an extra CD in the same package, that had Internet Explorer and Outlook Express etc, for people to install after the OS install. No one would have ever complained, or taken them to court
They screwed up by forcing people to have it, and building it into the OS
A simple CD, that when inserted poped up a window and said here is some free software for you. Just click on each program you want to install, and hit next
Would have changed everything
The only thing that should have been on the Install CD, was the core OS
And thousands of known drivers
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I'm not confused about anything and if you're reading what I'm saying, then I'm not getting it from you...
What's so complicated about this screenshot?
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/4720/82976499.jpg
I don't like navigating through a menu, is that hard to understand?
That is what I'm talking about, just like you said, give people choices and make just a basic simple OS install. Ok so I'm with you on that, but are you with me also on my point which is basically your point, give people choices!
If people want to use a menu to navigate so be it, if people want to navigate other means, then let that happen as well.
I'm simply saying give people the choice to have either a simple menu or an advanced menu, the advanced menu would of course be the menu that allows navigation through out the system with it, where as the simple menu would not allow for this, it would just be a basic menu with access to the applications and system functions and some of your folders...
So this is confusing?
P.S. I used Be when it came out too... ;)
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
where as the simple menu would not allow for this, it would just be a basic menu with access to the applications and system functions and some of your folders...
I think the confusing part is that you're the only one asking for a right-click menu on the desktop that takes you to the contents of the deskbar...
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
The right-click behavior on the BeOS/Haiku desktop has always been one of my favorite features--I can quickly and easily get anywhere in the filesystem! I've always missed that feature in Linux and Windows...
Maybe DasFox doesn't realize there is a menu on the deskbar:
http://www.haiku-os.org/docs/userguide/en/deskbar.html#deskbar-menu
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I'm not asking for a right click menu, I'm just saying for this Tracker menu, to have options to simplify it is all...
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Whilst I love the drill-down menu as do many of ex-BeOS users, I can see the point here. It does not help much ordinary user who might me intimidated because of the stuff like /boot/system/add-ons/kernel/. Moreover, it might not even be advisable for them to go there.
Maybe there's a need for something like "Simple drill-down menu" after all? Maybe it might be a good idea to remove boot disk from drill-down? Of course, since desktop and ~ (possibly others) are on the /boot the solution needs to be carefully thought out to avoid inconsistent mess. For example: if the option is enabled, there would not be drill-down from disk icon and starting from desktop there would be two root items: Desktop (without boot disk) and home. Copy/Move to menus would be similar and without parent/current options.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I'm not even sure what its called, but when you do the right click, and then follow out a menu or tree. there is a point, where you can see a redundant tree
A part where the menu shows the top or root ? or desktop or something
Basically showing a part of the tree most users will never use or need to see
BeOS did not have this, and it does make the tree look sloppy and busy
I have long wondered what exactly you mean. I now think I know: it's the move/copy/link entries when right-clicking an object. The Current/Recent folders can be a bit confusing. See ticket http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/4216 for a discussion on this.
Loading Haiku, and seeing it had 20 folders and programs already loaded, kind of put me off
Leave that for other people, let people write great programs, and sell them to make a living for themselves, while still giving people the basics, to get on the web, get email etc. I dont need a PDF program loaded. I dont need games or anything else. If I want a game, I'll download it. If I ever need to open a PDF file ? I will download my choice of PDF program
People like me wont touch a PDF file with a 10 foot pole, so why make me have to uninstall programs I didnt ask for in the first place ?
I give you the demo folder. I bet that will go for beta/R1.
Other that, i don't see what applications are redundant for a developer released alpha. All the dev-related programs will stay in their optional packages when it comes to beta/R1.
WRT to PDF: are you serious? Half the documentation on the net is PDF. Research papers, every other invoice from an online purchase comes as mailed PDF... It'd be like shunning GIFs.
That said, the exact range of bundled apps will always be a matter of discussion. Do you "need" LaunchBox, ProcessController, DeskCalc? Or even the Workspaces applet, TouchPad prefs or the newly imported Ex-SpiceyKeys?
Surely, you can download it all individually. And with the advent of a powerful package manger, this may even be easily done at install time. Still, bundling some essential stuff simplifies stuff as well.
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Maybe there's a need for something like "Simple drill-down menu" after all? Maybe it might be a good idea to remove boot disk from drill-down? Of course, since desktop and ~ (possibly others) are on the /boot the solution needs to be carefully thought out to avoid inconsistent mess. For example: if the option is enabled, there would not be drill-down from disk icon and starting from desktop there would be two root items: Desktop (without boot disk) and home. Copy/Move to menus would be similar and without parent/current options.
I'm starting to think that users only need to see ~/home/user and below on trackers right click menu, or maybe /common and others as well.
On the other hand, I think baron should always see everything.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
On the other hand, I think baron should always see everything.
Indeed, in the future when there are also other users besider baron, should they see the whole /boot/system in Move to menu? Then again, there's no reason why end users should be restricted from drilling to /boot/system/apps and let's not forget the volumes that are mounted on the desktop by the end user. But all those drivers, input layouts and suff in the /boot/system/. It is much more complicated that it seems at first. Maybe indeed hard-code some directories to be excluded from drill-down (system, common &c). This also required end user apps to be placed outside those directories.
quick menu useage
Indeed, in the future when there are also other users besider baron, should they see the whole /boot/system in Move to menu?
I do not think users should ever touch ~/system/, the Haiku user guide puts it that "..you should not alter what's inside". If you should never alter by modifying and adding/removing files from ~/system/, then why should it be in the quick menu, for what use would it be?
This does not mean that I think that /boot/system/ should not be shown in tracker under /boot/, but that the quick menu should only be used to access/modify the files/directories that the user owns/co-owns.
Then again, there's no reason why end users should be restricted from drilling to /boot/system/apps and let's not forget the volumes that are mounted on the desktop by the end user.
Firstly as said above and secondly I have a solution to this problem if an idea is implemented, this that there was talk[1] about letting the desktop be shown in ~/home/.
If the quick (drill down) menu entry point was then moved from the desktop to ~/home, you would find the contents of say usbflashdrive1 at /home/desktop/usbflashdrive1 on the quick menu. If this was done at a later point, the quick menu entry point would be moved to ~/username and the contents of usbflashdrive1 would be found under /username/desktop/usbflashdrive1 on the quick menu.
Viewed with tracker, usbflashdrive1 would be found at /boot/home/desktop/usbflashdrive1/ and /boot/home/username/desktop/usbflashdrive1/ respectively.
[1] http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku/Desktop-folder-disappears-from-boothome
Then again, normally right clicking on the desktop brings up the context menu, with the quick (drill down) menu starting at the entry point of the desktop. The removal of this would also remove some logic from this.
But all those drivers, input layouts and suff in the /boot/system/. It is much more complicated that it seems at first.
Reminding yourself of the below should remove some of the complication in mind.
If you want to add functionality, maybe with other Tracker Add-Ons or Translators or maybe another hardware driver, you install these things under your own /boot/home/ hierarchy or, if it's supposed to be for every user, under /boot/common/.
-
Maybe indeed hard-code some directories to be excluded from drill-down (system, common &c). This also required end user apps to be placed outside those directories.
What happened to /boot/home/apps/ ? :P
Re: quick menu useage
What happened to /boot/home/apps/ ? :P
Nothing, I presume :) There is /boot/system/apps though.
I do not think users should ever touch ~/system/,
Shouldn't that be /boot/system/? I agree that end users should not mess and currently there is a warning about wrting to /boot/system/. Therefore Move/Copy to paths would be irrelevant in such case but should it be if one wanted to open some nested folder to see the contents (as in drill-down from 'Volume' or Desktop, not from specific file)?
In general, if Desktop would be visible inside ~/ then it would solve the problem together with /boot/system (with the exception of /boot/system/apps/) being removed from the path.
There's still the case of multiple systm volumes available (which can be selected either from boot loader or boot menu) but my guess is that whoever has those wouldn't need "Simple drill-down" anyway.
Re: quick menu useage
What happened to /boot/home/apps/ ? :P
Nothing, I presume :) There is /boot/system/apps though.
I do not think users should ever touch ~/system/,
Shouldn't that be /boot/system/?
By ~/ I meant "whatever the path is, I'm too lazy to write it".
I was using ~ in a DOS-esque fashion, without knowing that it means something else in Unix and the likes.
So yeah that should be /boot/system/. Sadly I can't go back and fix up my last comment on this topic.
I agree that end users should not mess and currently there is a warning about wrting to /boot/system/. Therefore Move/Copy to paths would be irrelevant in such case but should it be if one wanted to open some nested folder to see the contents (as in drill-down from 'Volume' or Desktop, not from specific file)?
I am yet to make up my mind here. Only letting the user see files under /boot/system/ feels very wrong, yet at the same time I can see no other way.
In general, if Desktop would be visible inside ~/ then it would solve the problem together with /boot/system (with the exception of /boot/system/apps/) being removed from the path.
All the files in /boot/system/apps/ can be found in the deskbar, So I can not see why someone would need to see them outside of it.
Re: quick menu useage
I am yet to make up my mind here. Only letting the user see files under /boot/system/ feels very wrong, yet at the same time I can see no other way.
I'm very much in favor of keeping Haiku's hierarchy at maximum transparency for the user. That is, don't hide anything from him (Desktop is an aberration that should be fixed IMO). There's one simple rule, that can be expected to be learnt: Don't touch /boot/system, put your stuff into /boot/home/. If anyone feels uncomfortable with the (very clear IMO) hierarchy above /boot/home/, just don't stray there. Use Favorites to start your navigations within the save harbour of your own /boot/home/ hierarchy. (BTW, I don't mean "You", literally...)
Also, if the Desktop were not the root of mounted volumes, it wouldn't be the constant re-direction when navigating. You'd have a simplified context menu as described in http://dev.haiku-os.org/ticket/4216. Such an entry could also be put into Deskbar to serve as a navigation starting point without relying on the visibility of the Desktop.
Put a link to mounted volumes on the Desktop, if you must, but don't put them there by default as soon as they're mounted. There's always the option to only put the Disks icon up there.
All the files in /boot/system/apps/ can be found in the deskbar, So I can not see why someone would need to see them outside of it.
Not true. Apps that are 99.9% of the time launched via doubleclicking a data file, like ShowImage, TextSearch, PackageInstaller and the AboutSystem, aren't in Deskbar. Rightly so, but hiding folders is wrong, in case you do need to access them directly. For whatever reason.
One thing, that often comes up, but is worth repeating: Newbies are new only for a very short time. It's essential to welcome and accommodate them as best as we can, but we should never compromise the everyday usability for all who have settled in.
Of course, finding the right balance is the art of it... :)
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Even if I was not convinced of what I was saying above; you Humdinger and the others writing in that ticket, have very much convinced me otherwise.
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
Ok, Better late then never, if anyone is still reading this thread
I loaded Haiku last night, just so I could look at the menu
And see what it was that was different from BeOS
Its not the expanding menu
Its the expanding meanu when you click on a file
With Haiku, they added a couple more choices, and that makes it look way overdone and bloated
It used to be simple, copy or move here
Now it has recent folders, or home and root folders, etc
Now that I can agree with you on. that over blown new way is so linuxed and microsofted up its unreal. You might as well update every little movement
How about a mouse menu, that moves your mouse back 25 pixels when you click it
Just for those people that might move a mouse to the right by accident, and then not know how to move it back left again ?
You could just right click, hold ctrl-m -m -b, and then look through the menu for,
move mouse back to where it was 10 seconds ago
Or hey, why not expand on that, and add, 5 seconds ago, 10 seconds ago, 15 seconds ago, etc
The only thing I ever missed form microsoft when using BeOS
Was the right click to undo feature
IE, right click and choose undo rename, or undo move delete
But the only reason I ever needed something like that, was because the menu items were so close together, that sometimes you hit one by mistake while trying to click a different one
That used to piss me off in BeOS, when I would fudge up and click on a file while typing etc
Or moving the mouse, etc
And the file name would change, but because I was using BeOS, where I did not know every single file name by heart, I did not know what the old name used to be
So in other words, I changed a file name by accident, and then could not change it back, because I did not know the old file name, or extension
That is something that could be changed in Haiku
It is way to easy to click on a file, and have it jump to rename mode
In BeOS I learned real fast, to always click on the file icon and not the file name
Which is not always real easy to do
Why not just throw that option out the door, make file renaming something you need to right click to do ?
Why have clicking twice on a file name suddenly jump into file rename mode ?
Maybe this is something that needs to be started in a new thread ?
With no undo menu option, I see allot of people making the same mistake in the future
And I would rather see the rename mode turned off, then see a new menu be installed or made
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
I think I limit my answers to the constructive parts.
The a bit overdone Copy/Move/Link context menu on files has been addressed in the mentioned ticket. It has yet to be implemented.
There is an undo feature, see user guide page. It even has a history, so it doesn't just work on your last accident. Renaming and moving/copying files can be undone.
Does it deserve its own menu item? Maybe, OTOH ALT+Z is such a ubiquitous shortcut...
Renaming doesn't work anymore when single-clicking a file name. You have to click twice, but outside the double-click interval, as that would, naturally, open the file/folder instead.
I talk about a relatively recent r33939 build, so you ALPHA release may not be as polished in the renaming department.
Regards,
Humdinger
Re: Haiku Menu Should Be Changed
ALT-Z
That sounds cool, I've never noticed it before
Although it doesn't do much for the average user if its not on the menu
That would have saved me more then a few re-installs years ago
Right now Haiku doesnt support my lan, or wireless, so while I've loaded it
I haven't really used it
I just played awhile, and then reloaded Windows for internet access