Haiku R1 alpha
I was reading haiku mailing list archives and noticed that devs are starting to think about what programs to include to distro.
Well, I would suggest BeShare to distro. I think that it could be handy for distributing code / bins and even for chatting as needed. It is also very easy to use.
Comments
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I think it would be smart to presell Alpha 1 Cds 'limited edition'. They would be autographed by some famous developers :)
It would be an easy way to earn few bucks for Haiku,inc
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Good idea ;)
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
IMHO Haiku should ship with as minimal application set as possible. The "everything and the kitchen sink" mentality adopted by most Linux distributions is a scourge and is frankly just a way of compensating for their crap methods of application installation and convoluted file system hierarchies.
The problems with the "everything and the kitchen sink" mentality I see are:
1. It indirectly discourages third party application development by creating an unnatural advantage for one application and therefore stifles innovation.
2. It makes using a new operating system even more overwhelming that it already is to a novice user.
The only addition to the current set should be a web browser, but a start page for that browser containing links to few popular applications, like BeShare, would be a good idea in my book.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
The only addition to the current set should be a web browser, but a start page for that browser containing links to few popular applications, like BeShare, would be a good idea in my book.
As far as I can see the only big pieces of software are proposals 25 & 26 http://dev.haiku-os.org/wiki/R1/Alpha1Proposals.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Well, I would suggest BeShare to distro.
While I can understand the nostalgia, I'm not sure that BeShare is exceptionally popular any longer.
IRC is a staple now among FOSS projects, and as you'll see on that Proposal page, Vision is already listed, and adopted, which is probably the best IRC client available to Haiku at this point.
A properly setup network can support DCC transfer through Vision, but I'll admit, it's not as easy as P2P.
I agree that Haiku should be as slim as possible, while still providing enough software to get online and find more files and assistance.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
IMHO Haiku should ship with as minimal application set as possible. The "everything and the kitchen sink" mentality adopted by most Linux distributions is a scourge and is frankly just a way of compensating for their crap methods of application installation and convoluted file system hierarchies.
I agree 100%. I detest that I have to download a DVD-size ISOs or 4-7 CD ISOs because of the extra junk, and they don't label the downloads (i.e. "Discs 1 and 2 are required, 3+ are optional applications.") Prime example: I never use OpenOffice. Period. In addition to being untouched (by myself), OpenOffice is huge. Why do I always have to download it, uncheck the box, then find out I only needed discs 1 and 6?
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I hope it won't come bundled with anything by default, just like BeOS. Altough I would see the convenience if it would come with Firefox.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I hope it won't come bundled with anything by default, just like BeOS. Altough I would see the convenience if it would come with Firefox.
BeOS did come with NetPositive, a browser. So Haiku should have one too. Plus it would be hard to find new applications to install without a browser.
As for including other applications, I agree we should not go too crazy with pre-installing stuff, but at the same time we don't need to be completely minimalist. I think Mac OS X has a decent set of included applications without getting too bloated. As tiring as it might be to have to uninstall a few applications you don't like, it may be worse having to install the twenty you do. Though I guess that is just a necessary evil when doing reinstalls or setting up new machines. But we can ease the burden in Haiku by including top-quality applications.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
perhaps 90% of what everyone does on the computer these days is on the web so I'm glad we have firefox to cover that. And irc is especially important for users of a new OS. Chances are there will be a question and it's important to go to #haiku for instant help.
All those apps on linux don't help the platform at all. They complain about a Microsoft monopoly that bundles apps and yet they do the same thing. I would like to see a new vision, where you can put together a word processor from one organization and a spreadsheet from another and they would be integrated like a suite. Create a spreadsheet with "X", embed it in word processor "Y" and edit it with spreadsheet "Z" (you shouldn't be forced to use "X" even though that is the original spreadsheet app because "Z" also understands the same datatype)
No, of course, Gobe was against my vision completely and the result was a nifty word processor with a subpar spreadsheet and all your docs are locked up. They had to try to do everything in order to have integration and a small company won't be able to pull that off. Why not just make the best word processor and let someone else focus on the spreadsheet?
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
it's true that many softwares that come in the linux Distribution may be considerate as junk but it other many alternative software for almost every software and it's open source. the MS bundling action it's much more aggressive than linux distribs do. And another thing is MS thinks that they are the standard software that they aren't respecting the ISO standard policy or w3 standard policy. If you choose Firefox as the main web browser for Haiku then you are doing as MS does with IE7, if you bundle firefox, opera and what else software you are creating this junk situation that linux distribs do... IMHO i prefer to have the same situation as the linux distribs have, so you offer to the user alternatives to use any software. But it's my opinion TBH.
Cheers
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Maybe there should be a Senryu-like version with a set of bundled apps for demoing, and a main Haiku cd for installing or trying?
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
well at least with open source project ie firefox or openoffice the formats and standards are open... nothing stoping someone from writing an alternative
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
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Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Hi,
I think it would be smart to presell Alpha 1 Cds 'limited edition'. They would be autographed by some famous developers :)
It would be an easy way to earn few bucks for Haiku,inc
nice idea, indeed!
Now about the discussion of bundeled applications.
Well, don't forget, we're talking about an alpha-release !
So it is not that kind of 'release' or 'distribution' as we know that from other OSes.
I'd prefer a browser, of course and that BeShare application. It's not that important as in the old BeOS days but the muscle-networks provides us some kind of unique possibility to chat and share applications. Very sad the activity on the remaining servers is quite small (i remember the old days...).
As HAIKU needs applications when it's done (beta or RC status) i think it should be released as an alpha with developer tools.
There is not _so_much_ software out there.
a little bit OT now
And for the old softwares of the BeOS-days we should bundle our power and do something to making the former BeOS Software developers/Companies interested in looking into their old Archives. Maybe a few of them take a look about recompiling their apps. (i hope for that). There was very good softwares out for the BeOS, i.e. e-Picture, Mail-It, goBe, Corum III, Siegfried BackUp, Becasso, Digital Tracker, InSite Designer, personalStudio an so on. Anyone here remembers BeatWare INC., Sum Software, Raycone Software and few others which provided us HighQuality-software for 'our' OS? Not to mention goBe productive which is still my number one software for BeOS/HAIKU. And SoundPlay, and...
Togehter we are strong, but isn't it a bit early to do it now (alpha stage)? I don't know.
end OT
So as mentioned above, Dev-Tools and a Browser should be enough for upcoming alpha.
For other needs i think senryu is the best.
Or should there be a decision? An alpha-cd with the option to install plain HAIKU w/dev-tools or senryu w/bundeled applications?
Lets talk about.
Have a nice weekend!
prOSy
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I think all standard development tools like GCC should be included and setup right. GCC4 should be there as the default compiler and there should be no problem using GCC4 to compile programs. I would also like to have either a browser or a package manager included.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
This topic was discussed and voted on some time ago, the results are here now:
http://dev.haiku-os.org/wiki/R1/Alpha1Proposals
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Hi,
there is a default set of programs that ships with Haiku, but what might be interesting would be a download page where you can download your personal Haiku-CD with whatever software you want on your CD.
I am thinking of a generic installer that can install a list of programs that just exist in a special format on the installation medium. The user would decide what files go on the disk, before he downloads it.
1. Step:
Go to the Haiku download page. It has a list containing the base Package with the programs the Haiku developers think every Haiku has to ship with and lots of programs one might want to have on the CD.
2. Step: The user can check different radio buttons or whatever design is chosen to choose what packages he wants to fill up his installation medium. (There could be some box with favorite choices, for people who want more than basic but don't want to choose.)
3. Step: The user downloads his personal Installation CD
4. Step: The user installes Haiku from the CD. I would love to see an installer like the one YellowTAB put into Zeta. The special thing was, that it shows screenshots of the programs one could install. The programs in the list would be the ones the user picked in step 2.
5. Step: everything done and you have a great Haiku experience, no more searching the web and manually downloading and installing the 4 programs you always use.
What do you think?
best regards,
Thomas
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Nah, don't like it. :)
Don't get me wrong, the idea itself is fine, it's just not something I want to have included in the Haiku base system.
It's no help to be provided with a long list of apps, even if there were screenshots. You still have to install and use them for a bit to pick and choose the few cherries among them. With your proposal the line between OS and 3rd party software is blurred and a new user may mistake, let's say, "unpolished" apps with the system.
It would make a nice service for a website that tests software, though not as your proposed complete distribution. They could create BestOf packages that can be downloaded and unzipped with a single click. Well, three clicks: one on the link, one on "OK" to open in Expander and one on "OK" to unpack...
Everyone registered can save and change these packages in his profile for a quick download of his farvorite apps in case of a new Haiku installation. Updates to his apps could be announced via email.
I bet you'd find such a webservice, if it's done well, prominently linked on Haiku's website and in its documentation.
Hey, see what I did there? I took your idea, said I don't like it, and morphed it into something awesome. :)
Regards,
Humdinger
Demoes
Like R5: Links on the desktop to docs, bebits.com, user groups, irc.
Webbrowser (again get connected)
A lot of little neat demoes: get people interested what the system can do without being complicated, get developers attention.
Sample code.
For me I was sold when I saw Gobe Productive's 'the Widget' sample document.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Oh I can't wait the alpha release :) I check the roadmap every other day to see how many open bugs are remaining until alpha1 reaches 100 % ;)
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I check the bug list every few hours.. there are about 7 to go at the moment...
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
There should be the following packages, similar to debian:
Minimal Network install (just the OS and network stack w/ drivers)
CD install (contains apps like a browser, most used drivers, a few games, an e-mail client and a basic wordprocessor.)
Dev Install (Dev kit stuff)
Hacker's install (dvd full of apps and other stuff, can check all items and even check no to GUI, choose filesystems (I highly suggest ZFS)
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Currently there are 8. I personally am getting burnt out waiting for an alpha. Now before I get bashed, let me state I cannot even begin to realize the time/effort spent on the Haiku project. It's a tremendous task, but for me, the value of having a BeOS compatible+ operating system is diminishing by the day. Combine that with the lack of other interested people/users in the area makes me wonder why I fret over it soo much. For years I have told other people about BeOS/Haiku. I now realize that maybe, just maybe, I concern myself too much with Haiku. After all, we're speaking of a computer operating system, not a life or death situation. I might feel differently if I knew other "Haiku" people in my area that I could speak with. But waiting for a virtually unknown OS is a lonely road. Let the bashing begin!
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I might feel differently if I knew other "Haiku" people in my area that I could speak with. But waiting for a virtually unknown OS is a lonely road.
Actually, I am often surprised at how many people I meet that know of Haiku.
I don't mean at the supermarket, but when I attend "geek" conferences or gatherings, I will often run into people who say stuff like: "Oh yeah, I've heard of Haiku, that's a re-creation of BeOS right?" and then conversation will ensue, usually ending with: "Wow, that's neat, I'd love to take a look at it once they provide CD images!"
I'm pretty certain those same people are still willing to take a look, but they will likely need another reminder when the time comes.
More than likely, they'll not know Haiku has been released and available until they run into someone again who uses it, or it makes huge headlines on popular tech sites/blogs like Slashdot or Ars Technica.
Off topic here, but what area do you live in? Perhaps you can start a HUG. We have a somewhat small HUG here in northern California (NorCal-HUG) which primarily consists of the few of us that like to attend conferences and gatherings together when the opportunity arises.
- Urias
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I live in Michigan, near Detroit.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
I for one would be willing to part with a small amount of cash for an R1 livecd.
Things I feel should definately be included in the basic install other than the obvious tools and utilities:
A web browser, irc/icq/chat client, and an email client of some description. MUST have flash and java support for us youtube/flash games/facebook addicts(something that includes all of these in one 'suite' would be nice imo)
A media player of some description
A text editor, preferably one capable of at least basic formatting and saviing as .rtf as well as .txt
a photo management app (not necessarily like iPhoto, but something that will recognise my camera and grab the photos for me)
These are all things I use pretty much every day, and if Haiku proves to be as solid and usable as BeOS was I will be using it as my primary OS like I did with BeOS.
What i think is a definate necessity, which most OSes in my experience don't have, or don't do very well, is an installer that does the following:
1 - installs the base system and essential utilities such as the bash shell, a basic web browser, irc client and tracker etc no matter what
2 - allows you to choose your apps from a list, so if you don't want a media player, or an office suite, you can deselect them, or you can select everything if you want everything. It might ask you to make selections as to what functions you want to use (such as watch movies/listen to music, doe word processing), and install related applications automatically
3 - looks nice and has an easy to use interface.
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
In my opinion, it's a wrong way of action - to provide a bare-bone operating system, equipped only with a browser. It's the main reason I don't use Ubuntu.
It really depends on what are our target-users. In my opinion, the people who will give a try to Haiku are experienced with various Linux distributions. And, as we all know, most of the popular Linux distros has everything included, - and people rarely use ones which don't provide everything on the installation DVD. Therefore, providing everything a user needs will be expected by default, while finding out that only the OS is included will be discouraging for the users. On the other side, newbies who convert to Haiku from Windows don't expect other soft to be present on the installation CD, thus they will be very pleasantly amazed when they find out all they need is already packaged in the CD. As such, to include additional software is a win-win decision.
If an OS requires me to go somewhere on the net and to install additional software to make it useable, I would not use it. This is one of the reasons I don't like to use Windows. Again, this is the reason I don't use Ubuntu. Ubuntu may be the best Linux distro in the world (which I doubt, anyway), but I prefer Mandriva with tons of additional software on the installation DVD, which is installed along with the OS right during the OS setup. I doubt I'll use Haiku if it requires from me to download additional soft after installation.
One last thing: if OS is next to unusable without additional software which should be downloaded, the Internet connection must be specified as an installation requirement. Now check the bank of Haiku connectivity drivers and ask yourself, can we require an Internet connection?
Re: Haiku R1 alpha
Well, I'm pretty sure you'll find quite a few distributions, once R1 is out, that will pack anything they can get to compile into a nice fat image. Hopefully, they will also sell you a DVD.
However, I see a trend to move things from installation disks to the interweb, see the infamous cloud computing.
I'm pretty confident that once R1 is out, most of Haiku's potential users (which would be quite technically minded) are pretty used to get packages online.
Testing, choosing and updating those packages is something a few dedicated individuals could have lots of fun with. No need to burden the Haiku Team directly.
And considering Haiku's FreeBSD net driver compatibility layer, I was under the impression that connectivity isn't that huge a hurdle any more.
All totally my personal opinion. You could be totally right on all accounts... We'll see.