Has anyone declared their intentions to develop a Haiku-specific web browser? I mean one with the functionality of BeZilla/Firefox, but written in C++/BeAPI to work specifically with the Be API?
Exactly what "Standards" would be considered enough for you to eat your hat?
The Basics:
xHTML 1.0 (Standard, Strict)/1.1
HTML 4
XML
CSS 1 and 2
Some others:
MathML
XForms
Scripts:
Javascript
Did i miss anything? I have been planning to write a Web Browser (Even a simple one) for a long time now, and it has been lingering on my TODO list for almost as long... It's now almost time it's at the top of my list, and i'm going to give it a go.
Why not try to use an existing good browser (like Dillo http://www.dillo.org), that would be a nice start. Only m17n/i18n has to be added to your list. ;)
Dillo is developed to be small and code efficient. Its not really designed with the intent of being a full featured browser, and as such is not really structured in such a way that it would be easily extended to one.
I have actually poked around and hacked at the Dillo source, and it is not, in my opinion, a good place to start if you want to build a complete browser.
Firefox is already available on BeOS. If you want Firefox and are happy using Firefox, and will continue to use Firefox in the event of a native browser being developed, well, why would you contribute to this discussion?
Because maybe some of us want to see Haiku actually finish R1 and become a realistic operating system option?
In my "outsider" view, creating a new browser (whether it's from scratch or through some porting) when a browser already exists for the OS means that less people will be working on finishing critical OS components and that pushes out the overall R1 timeframe.
Firefox is already available on BeOS. If you want Firefox and are happy using Firefox, and will continue to use Firefox in the event of a native browser being developed, well, why would you contribute to this discussion?
Because maybe some of us want to see Haiku actually finish R1 and become a realistic operating system option?
In my "outsider" view, creating a new browser (whether it's from scratch or through some porting) when a browser already exists for the OS means that less people will be working on finishing critical OS components and that pushes out the overall R1 timeframe.
Absolutely. I'm going to tinker around with a Layout Engine one day, as i have always planned, but not until i can use Haiku as a development platform...
I'm going to tinker around with a Layout Engine one day, as i have always planned, but not until i can use Haiku as a development platform...
I honestly think a lot of people are waiting for that...it's a lot easier to develop ON the platform you target - as it means you can compile and test immediately.
This is one of the milestones I think many are waiting for at this point. (and in my opinion, it's a requirement for an official "R1" release)
Speaking as a non-coder: Isn't the fact that Haiku R1 will be binary and source compatible to BeOS R5 an argument that any development for Haiku can be started now on BeOS? Any small incompatibilities can quickly be fixed when "porting" to the eventual Haiku R1.
Being source compatible would be enough to that end.
The reason, I think, that Haiku went with binary compatibility in the first place is that in the beginning the incentive was to be able to use existing BeOS software. But since it all took longer than initially expected, most of the abandonned programs are getting outdated or replaced by new apps and the still maintained ones would be recompiled for Haiku without to much hassle.
There are only a few apps left that are closed source and as of yet irreplacable. Gobe Productive is all I can come up right now...
So, if anyone has a project in mind, start right now on BeOS and don't wait until Haiku is on our doorsteps. It would really be awesome if there were a few brand spanking new apps coming out together with R1!
Speaking as a non-coder: Isn't the fact that Haiku R1 will be binary and source compatible to BeOS R5 an argument that any development for Haiku can be started now on BeOS? Any small incompatibilities can quickly be fixed when "porting" to the eventual Haiku R1.
Being source compatible would be enough to that end.
The reason, I think, that Haiku went with binary compatibility in the first place is that in the beginning the incentive was to be able to use existing BeOS software. But since it all took longer than initially expected, most of the abandonned programs are getting outdated or replaced by new apps and the still maintained ones would be recompiled for Haiku without to much hassle.
There are only a few apps left that are closed source and as of yet irreplacable. Gobe Productive is all I can come up right now...
So, if anyone has a project in mind, start right now on BeOS and don't wait until Haiku is on our doorsteps. It would really be awesome if there were a few brand spanking new apps coming out together with R1!
Cheers!
This is rather difficult, since BeOS refuses to work 100% on my hardware. I am getting a laptop *very* soon, (Should FINALLY arrive monday or tuesday), and then i can proceed with several projects i have in mind. When this happens, i'll also start tinkering with a Layout Engine. I have some what of a design in my head already.
The problem really is that a layout engine is a huge task - that's why i'm aiming for R2. Something like Firefox, or even an Embedded Gecko Solution, would be a quicker and easier task for R1.
If people want to work on a Haiku Browser and contribute to it, than let them. Thats how community driven projects work. It isn't wasting time, its contributing to something that people feel is important. If you don't feel the same way 1. don't contribute to the haiku-browser and 2. don't be mad at others for contributing as they see fit. Personally, I find Firefox and gecko to be insufficient and I hope eventually Haiku adopts a KHTML-based solution. Everyone and anyone are welcome to disagree, but don't belittle or disregard anyone's wish to contribute, doing so weakens the will for the project to continue.
@ skoe:
Great! Good luck with your efforts. Myself, I hold out on my ancient hardware until R1 is here and then have a look at what notebook fits best.
ar1000 wrote:
If people want to work on a Haiku Browser and contribute to it, than let them. --snip-- Everyone and anyone are welcome to disagree, but don't belittle or disregard anyone's wish to contribute, doing so weakens the will for the project to continue.
I'm not sure to whom you're responding. Certainly my post couldn't have provoked this...?
If people want to work on a Haiku Browser and contribute to it, than let them. Thats how community driven projects work. It isn't wasting time, its contributing to something that people feel is important. If you don't feel the same way 1. don't contribute to the haiku-browser and 2. don't be mad at others for contributing as they see fit. Personally, I find Firefox and gecko to be insufficient and I hope eventually Haiku adopts a KHTML-based solution. Everyone and anyone are welcome to disagree, but don't belittle or disregard anyone's wish to contribute, doing so weakens the will for the project to continue.
I've neither belittled nor begrudged anyone, I'm simply using the freedoms available in an open community like this to state my own opinions in hopes of convincing some folks that a new browser for a future operating system is not as important as the operating system itself. Without an OS, any browser is effectively vaporware.
On a completely unrelated sidenote, I'm thinking of buying a new system to run a variety of OSes. It will primarily be a Linux box, but I'd like to reserve a partition for Haiku. Any pointers into what I should be looking for hardware-wise? If so, please private message me...
A little off topic, but could the hardware compat list be one day turned into a more...dynamic representation? With comments, known problems, how well it works, etc. for each device?
A little off topic, but could the hardware compat list be one day turned into a more...dynamic representation? With comments, known problems, how well it works, etc. for each device?
A little off topic, but could the hardware compat list be one day turned into a more...dynamic representation? With comments, known problems, how well it works, etc. for each device?
Well, it *is* a wiki afterall ;)
But I agree... and I'm really liking the new ReactOS compatibility section (both hardware and software) - it's REALLY slick.
A little off topic, but could the hardware compat list be one day turned into a more...dynamic representation? With comments, known problems, how well it works, etc. for each device?
Well, it *is* a wiki afterall ;)
But I agree... and I'm really liking the new ReactOS compatibility section (both hardware and software) - it's REALLY slick.
lol. True.
And i just went and checkout out the ReactOS Site. It's awesome...Something like that is definently needed...
(I've been stalking these forums for a while)
Count me among those looking forward eagerly to a native KHTML port. I have just now contacted the Haiku Bounties leader about starting a bounty for just such a project. I, being a newcomer, am in no position to determine the specs for this bounty, so others more competent than myself would have to do that if the bounty is approved. Unfortunately, I am now in no financial position to donate the full amount required for starting a bounty, despite the small amount ($50.) Would others be willing to help me support this project?
(I've been stalking these forums for a while)
Count me among those looking forward eagerly to a native KHTML port. I have just now contacted the Haiku Bounties leader about starting a bounty for just such a project. I, being a newcomer, am in no position to determine the specs for this bounty, so others more competent than myself would have to do that if the bounty is approved. Unfortunately, I am now in no financial position to donate the full amount required for starting a bounty, despite the small amount ($50.) Would others be willing to help me support this project?
I just learned that YellowTab claimed a few years back to have a working KHTML port, but I don't know what's happened to that since. I emailed them and have gotten no response. Does anyone have any more recent information about this? There's no point starting a bounty to do this if YT already has it done...maybe we can convince them to release it?
I just learned that YellowTab claimed a few years back to have a working KHTML port, but I don't know what's happened to that since. I emailed them and have gotten no response. Does anyone have any more recent information about this? There's no point starting a bounty to do this if YT already has it done...maybe we can convince them to release it?
I don't think anything will come out from YT at this point (be it the KHTML port or anything else for that matter).
As previously stated in this thread, if you are interested in a KHTML based browser for BeOS, participate in the Nirvana project. For more information:
I was pushed in WebCore last year apprx 2005 summer by fyysik. He said "go for it". Then I didn't know anything about Phillip willing to port nor Ithamar poritng. I did KJS and was startting to work with KHTML and at the end of summer the project was suspended for other objective reasons.
Nowaday I have some time... First of all I prepared public sources on berlios.de, creating Google Group and waiting for feedbacks. Now I don't quite understant what shall I do ? Wait for Ithamar Sources, or Phillip sources or shall I do it by myself ? Also I request for commects from the leaders of browser building, I mean THQ and fyysik. I'm interesting in their position about subject.
If community want me to continue work I can allocate some time for the project. Also I can donate 100$ (its not a money - really:) fo thous who what to do it by themself. From other side now I spend some time for Haiku TTY layer and have a look on Google XMPP client to port it for BeOS. So Guys, Whats Your Comments on this, What shall I Do ?
I was pushed in WebCore last year apprx 2005 summer by fyysik. He said "go for it". Then I didn't know anything about Phillip willing to port nor Ithamar poritng. I did KJS and was startting to work with KHTML and at the end of summer the project was suspended for other objective reasons.
Nowaday I have some time... First of all I prepared public sources on berlios.de, creating Google Group and waiting for feedbacks. Now I don't quite understant what shall I do ? Wait for Ithamar Sources, or Phillip sources or shall I do it by myself ? Also I request for commects from the leaders of browser building, I mean THQ and fyysik. I'm interesting in their position about subject.
If community want me to continue work I can allocate some time for the project. Also I can donate 100$ (its not a money - really:) fo thous who what to do it by themself. From other side now I spend some time for Haiku TTY layer and have a look on Google XMPP client to port it for BeOS. So Guys, Whats Your Comments on this, What shall I Do ?
A KHTML port would be a fantastic asset to BeOS as a platform. I've always thought it was a shame that although BeOS can run perfectly well on older hardware, no modern browser can run on BeOS on older hardware. A KHTML port would go a long way to remedying this.
Why don't we just port QT and the necessary parts of KDE? Then we wouldn't need to worry about writing an elaborate KDE/QT wrapper for KHTML. IIRC QT isn't too dependant on X11, and KDE is apparently portable, judging by the fact it runs under Cygwin. I don't even think it would require the "kdebase" package, it might just work with "kdelibs."
Why don't we just port QT and the necessary parts of KDE? Then we wouldn't need to worry about writing an elaborate KDE/QT wrapper for KHTML. IIRC QT isn't too dependant on X11, and KDE is apparently portable, judging by the fact it runs under Cygwin. I don't even think it would require the "kdebase" package, it might just work with "kdelibs."
I think the desire is to have a good beos-like browser based on well-built and recent rendering technology - not to port an entire windowing environment to Haiku.
I feel, we should do a camino act onto the BeOS platform, porting gecko but scrapping cross platformish technologies in opt for BeOS technologies.
It has already been discussed a lot in this thread.
The thing about KHTML and friends is that we have a few approaches at porting, but none has reached the goal yet. Hopefully we can unite these into one effort and produce a very nice BeOS browser.
It seems that all involved are interested in doing that, so I think it's just a matter of picking which code to start (or continue) from and start hacking.
I can't really say what lemon or anyone else should work on. Work on the things you are motivated by. My hope is that there will be one, instead of many, KHTML-based project with source code in a repository so that all who dare, can help out.
Btw lemon, all those projects you mention are really nice ones.
I was pushed in WebCore last year apprx 2005 summer by fyysik. He said "go for it". Then I didn't know anything about Phillip willing to port nor Ithamar poritng. I did KJS and was startting to work with KHTML and at the end of summer the project was suspended for other objective reasons.
Quote:
I guess I'm this "Phillip willing to port" guy. For what it worth, indeed I've once attempted a partial port of the WebCore, and did as you did last summer: KJS was working but the hard part, KHTML port, was not even started. I never promise I will continue it, I've even express that with FireFox in good shape it was not mandatory anymore but a good track for a more native browser... If I've ever promise to continue the port, well, what could I say except one should never trust me!
I could probably send what I've done but I'll bet your partial port is the same and more up-to-date than mine.
So don't hold yourself because of me, because there is absolutly no reason.
I can't talk for Ithamar regarding webcore, though.
Comments
Haiku Web Browser
Why not try to use an existing good browser (like Dillo http://www.dillo.org), that would be a nice start. Only m17n/i18n has to be added to your list. ;)
Haiku Web Browser
Dillo is developed to be small and code efficient. Its not really designed with the intent of being a full featured browser, and as such is not really structured in such a way that it would be easily extended to one.
I have actually poked around and hacked at the Dillo source, and it is not, in my opinion, a good place to start if you want to build a complete browser.
Haiku Web Browser
Because maybe some of us want to see Haiku actually finish R1 and become a realistic operating system option?
In my "outsider" view, creating a new browser (whether it's from scratch or through some porting) when a browser already exists for the OS means that less people will be working on finishing critical OS components and that pushes out the overall R1 timeframe.
Haiku Web Browser
Absolutely. I'm going to tinker around with a Layout Engine one day, as i have always planned, but not until i can use Haiku as a development platform...
Haiku Web Browser
I honestly think a lot of people are waiting for that...it's a lot easier to develop ON the platform you target - as it means you can compile and test immediately.
This is one of the milestones I think many are waiting for at this point. (and in my opinion, it's a requirement for an official "R1" release)
Haiku Web Browser
Speaking as a non-coder: Isn't the fact that Haiku R1 will be binary and source compatible to BeOS R5 an argument that any development for Haiku can be started now on BeOS? Any small incompatibilities can quickly be fixed when "porting" to the eventual Haiku R1.
Being source compatible would be enough to that end.
The reason, I think, that Haiku went with binary compatibility in the first place is that in the beginning the incentive was to be able to use existing BeOS software. But since it all took longer than initially expected, most of the abandonned programs are getting outdated or replaced by new apps and the still maintained ones would be recompiled for Haiku without to much hassle.
There are only a few apps left that are closed source and as of yet irreplacable. Gobe Productive is all I can come up right now...
So, if anyone has a project in mind, start right now on BeOS and don't wait until Haiku is on our doorsteps. It would really be awesome if there were a few brand spanking new apps coming out together with R1!
Cheers!
Haiku Web Browser
This is rather difficult, since BeOS refuses to work 100% on my hardware. I am getting a laptop *very* soon, (Should FINALLY arrive monday or tuesday), and then i can proceed with several projects i have in mind. When this happens, i'll also start tinkering with a Layout Engine. I have some what of a design in my head already.
The problem really is that a layout engine is a huge task - that's why i'm aiming for R2. Something like Firefox, or even an Embedded Gecko Solution, would be a quicker and easier task for R1.
Haiku Web Browser
If people want to work on a Haiku Browser and contribute to it, than let them. Thats how community driven projects work. It isn't wasting time, its contributing to something that people feel is important. If you don't feel the same way 1. don't contribute to the haiku-browser and 2. don't be mad at others for contributing as they see fit. Personally, I find Firefox and gecko to be insufficient and I hope eventually Haiku adopts a KHTML-based solution. Everyone and anyone are welcome to disagree, but don't belittle or disregard anyone's wish to contribute, doing so weakens the will for the project to continue.
Haiku Web Browser
@ skoe:
Great! Good luck with your efforts. Myself, I hold out on my ancient hardware until R1 is here and then have a look at what notebook fits best.
I'm not sure to whom you're responding. Certainly my post couldn't have provoked this...?
Haiku Web Browser
I've neither belittled nor begrudged anyone, I'm simply using the freedoms available in an open community like this to state my own opinions in hopes of convincing some folks that a new browser for a future operating system is not as important as the operating system itself. Without an OS, any browser is effectively vaporware.
On a completely unrelated sidenote, I'm thinking of buying a new system to run a variety of OSes. It will primarily be a Linux box, but I'd like to reserve a partition for Haiku. Any pointers into what I should be looking for hardware-wise? If so, please private message me...
Haiku Web Browser
It is not a complete compatibility list, but it is a start:
http://haiku-os.org/wiki/index.php?title=Hardware_Compatibility_list
Haiku Web Browser
A little off topic, but could the hardware compat list be one day turned into a more...dynamic representation? With comments, known problems, how well it works, etc. for each device?
Haiku Web Browser
Like http://www.bedrivers.com/hardware/ ? it's probably time to fork() it for Haiku though :twisted:
Haiku Web Browser
Well, it *is* a wiki afterall ;)
But I agree... and I'm really liking the new ReactOS compatibility section (both hardware and software) - it's REALLY slick.
Haiku Web Browser
lol. True.
And i just went and checkout out the ReactOS Site. It's awesome...Something like that is definently needed...
Haiku Web Browser
For those interested in KHTML / WebCore:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp-browsers-nirvana/browse_thread/thread/f43d10722825441
Also look at http://groups.google.com/group/comp-browsers-nirvana?lnk=lr
Bounty?
(I've been stalking these forums for a while)
Count me among those looking forward eagerly to a native KHTML port. I have just now contacted the Haiku Bounties leader about starting a bounty for just such a project. I, being a newcomer, am in no position to determine the specs for this bounty, so others more competent than myself would have to do that if the bounty is approved. Unfortunately, I am now in no financial position to donate the full amount required for starting a bounty, despite the small amount ($50.) Would others be willing to help me support this project?
Re: Bounty?
I'll donate $10.
Haiku Web Browser
I just learned that YellowTab claimed a few years back to have a working KHTML port, but I don't know what's happened to that since. I emailed them and have gotten no response. Does anyone have any more recent information about this? There's no point starting a bounty to do this if YT already has it done...maybe we can convince them to release it?
Haiku Web Browser
I don't think anything will come out from YT at this point (be it the KHTML port or anything else for that matter).
As previously stated in this thread, if you are interested in a KHTML based browser for BeOS, participate in the Nirvana project. For more information:
http://groups.google.com/group/comp-browsers-nirvana?lnk=lr
http://nirvana.berlios.de/
Nirvana Status
Hello People.
I was pushed in WebCore last year apprx 2005 summer by fyysik. He said "go for it". Then I didn't know anything about Phillip willing to port nor Ithamar poritng. I did KJS and was startting to work with KHTML and at the end of summer the project was suspended for other objective reasons.
Nowaday I have some time... First of all I prepared public sources on berlios.de, creating Google Group and waiting for feedbacks. Now I don't quite understant what shall I do ? Wait for Ithamar Sources, or Phillip sources or shall I do it by myself ? Also I request for commects from the leaders of browser building, I mean THQ and fyysik. I'm interesting in their position about subject.
If community want me to continue work I can allocate some time for the project. Also I can donate 100$ (its not a money - really:) fo thous who what to do it by themself. From other side now I spend some time for Haiku TTY layer and have a look on Google XMPP client to port it for BeOS. So Guys, Whats Your Comments on this, What shall I Do ?
Re: Nirvana Status
A KHTML port would be a fantastic asset to BeOS as a platform. I've always thought it was a shame that although BeOS can run perfectly well on older hardware, no modern browser can run on BeOS on older hardware. A KHTML port would go a long way to remedying this.
As for GTalk, isn't it already supported as part of IMKit? Even if it is it would be good to see XMPP integrated into Haiku. There's an interesting blog post from a KDE developer regarding its uses here: http://blog.bepointbe.be/index.php/2006/06/10/15-jabber-is-more-than-ins...
Haiku Web Browser
I'm going to be flamed for this, but...
Why don't we just port QT and the necessary parts of KDE? Then we wouldn't need to worry about writing an elaborate KDE/QT wrapper for KHTML. IIRC QT isn't too dependant on X11, and KDE is apparently portable, judging by the fact it runs under Cygwin. I don't even think it would require the "kdebase" package, it might just work with "kdelibs."
Haiku Web Browser
I think the desire is to have a good beos-like browser based on well-built and recent rendering technology - not to port an entire windowing environment to Haiku.
Haiku Web Browser
I feel, we should do a camino act onto the BeOS platform, porting gecko but scrapping cross platformish technologies in opt for BeOS technologies.
Haiku Web Browser
It has already been discussed a lot in this thread.
The thing about KHTML and friends is that we have a few approaches at porting, but none has reached the goal yet. Hopefully we can unite these into one effort and produce a very nice BeOS browser.
It seems that all involved are interested in doing that, so I think it's just a matter of picking which code to start (or continue) from and start hacking.
I can't really say what lemon or anyone else should work on. Work on the things you are motivated by. My hope is that there will be one, instead of many, KHTML-based project with source code in a repository so that all who dare, can help out.
Btw lemon, all those projects you mention are really nice ones.
Re: Nirvana Status