Both Java and .Net both have their uses. But writing desktop apps wouldn't be the best use.
I have 2 programs I use heavily. Last year they switched both apps to .net and it was like someone tied a boat anchor to the computer. Database is alot buggier to. Lots more crashs etc.
I have heard of benchmarking being done that states if you want to kill half of your system performance, run the same task in .net. Java isn't much better. In fact I think to a large degree we'd all be better off if those 2 IL's went away.
Correct. Java is slower and more CPU intense. Many years ago, I recall using a java torrent client and another one built in C. The java one really taxed the CPU while the C coded one used very little. Night and day difference between the two.
Java was made to mainly be portable by working on any OS and hardware but with reduced performance. If you have a java virtual machine (interpreter) available on your platform you could run any java program you liked. (Java is OS & hardware independent).
.NET is competitor to Java. Works very similar. .NET programs should work on any hardware running Windows OSes.
For performance, very hard to compete with C & C++. Even other programming languages are likely faster than Java/.NET like yabasic (newer BASIC), perl, python, ..........
Java for portability but better solution is to stick with one OS (ie: Debian Linux) and recode program for different architechtures when needed. That way you still get excellent performance with just a little more work.
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it!
Correct. Java is slower and more CPU intense. Many years ago, I recall using a java torrent client and another one built in C. The java one really taxed the CPU while the C coded one used very little. Night and day difference between the two.
Java was made to mainly be portable by working on any OS and hardware but with reduced performance. If you have a java virtual machine (interpreter) available on your platform you could run any java program you liked. (Java is OS & hardware independent).
.NET is competitor to Java. Works very similar. .NET programs should work on any hardware running Windows OSes.
For performance, very hard to compete with C & C++. Even other programming languages are likely faster than Java/.NET like yabasic (newer BASIC), perl, python, ..........
Java for portability but better solution is to stick with one OS (ie: Debian Linux) and recode program for different architechtures when needed. That way you still get excellent performance with just a little more work.
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it!
I understand the interpreted language layer issues.More wasted HP on crap that could just be written using common librarys and compiled to run under more OS's. eventually most OS application writers get to cuaght up in the eye candy. We could this neat shiny widget. Sure you could, but you strip away a bunch of computing power to do it making the computer far less effiecient.
As more people start making there own home videos in HD and even LoeDef formats we will see alot more strain on the pc and the best way to manage alot of that is to keep the OS footprint light and the same goes for the applications. Thats why I proposed vertically intergrating GPU computing power into the Haiku. Could you imagine the performance increase a native kernel intergration like this would bring to the end user. It would also make it MUCH easier for developers to tap into this power. When they aren't busy worrying about the physics of cloth on a coat :-P
Is Yabasic comparable to vb ? I am googling it now.
OpenOffice is a C++ program ... the only place java comes into the picture is some plugins which are written in java.
I'm learning lisp at the moment and it has several advantages It can be written like python in an interpreter and compiled later for a release... it also seems to be an extremely flexible and powerful language.
yabasic is structured BASIC. VB is object oriented. yabasic would be similar to what C is to C++. yabasic and C look fairly similar.
Good # of programs on haikuware with GUI that were made with YAB. YAB programs are mostly yabasic. YAB allows you to make a GUI program (or front end) fairly fast.
@tonestone57 I do agree with your points about interpreted languages though. That said they do have advantages for speed of development and debugging if not runtime speed which is atainable with some compilable interpreted languages.
I might look into doing a LISP (CLISP) C++ binding so programming could be done for haiku in LISP... I don't think that would incur undue overhead if it were compiled.
It seems the Open Office code still has a ways to go as the native rendering backend isn't written I think there is a backend for QT that might be worth looking into... it doesn't use the native wigets though it simulates them.
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it!
Java is lots of things: A programming language (and quite a nice one, certainly a big improvement over C++ as used throughout Haiku); A bytecode representation; A virtual machine to run the byte code; A licensed brand of Sun Microsystems and now Oracle;
Android developers use the Java language, but neither the bytecode, VM or brand. Google developed its own bytecode and virtual machine. The emphasis in the virtual machine was on security, Android devices can determine what a particular app will do (e.g. make calls, use the Internet, determine your location with GPS) and let the user decide whether to run it. This makes it possible to run Android apps without needing to trust the entity that created them, which makes an open market for apps viable, unlike for the iPhone.
Android also includes unique technology (it's Free Software of course, but it was developed by Google) for power management. This is critical to a mobile device, and the approach taken in Android seems effective, particularly in later OS builds like Froyo. The APIs and VM for Android were built with this power saving in mind.
You can buy a smartphone with non-Android Linux, but as you observed people aren't buying as many of these as they are Android phones. Most people probably don't want to write raw C code for their phone, and those who do can 'root' Android and install non-VM binaries if they please.
"Java is lots of things: A programming language (and quite a nice one, certainly a big improvement over C++ as used throughout Haiku);"
Irrelevant. Most OSes are programmed in C or C++ for speed. Even POSIX libraries are C coded. Java is too slow for a real OS. Android is actually a hybrid, uses Linux Kernel (C++) with Google's custom GUI (based off Java). Anything that is GUI intense on Android will take greater CPU power because of Java.
Linux has excellent security so forget about playing that card. :-)
With so many developers on Linux you would think they could create a version with greater power management. Microsoft does it with Windows CE (C++), Apple does it with iOS (C++), ......, but Linux does not? I guess no one thought of creating a Linux Mobile version?
Power saving is about: turning off the screen, reducing clock frequencies on CPU & GPU (lower power consumption), less power use on screen (brightness) and going into (low power) standby when not in use. It makes you wonder why Android can do these better than Linux.
If Java was so great Sun should have programmed all of StarOffice (OpenOffice) with it and see what happened. Then you would see what dog slow meant.
Many OSes, SDL/OpenGL/DirectX games (complex not simple ones) and other big programs are done in C++ or C for high performance!
My off-topic rant on Java and Android OS. :-)
I think I've said enough on it.
If Java was so great Sun should have programmed all of StarOffice (OpenOffice) with it and see what happened. Then you would see what dog slow meant.
StarOffice was an existing product with a development history behind it. It was from a German company called StarDivision and already written using their own cross-platform C++ framework called StarView. Sun not throwing out all that code and not rewriting in Java is no a comment on Java appropriateness (or lack) to app development.
I suspect availability of OpenOffice.org, even via TiltOS & X11, will dampen efforts to bring up native Haiku productivity apps.
StarOffice was an existing product with a development history behind it. It was from a German company called StarDivision and already written using their own cross-platform C++ framework called StarView. Sun not throwing out all that code and not rewriting in Java is no a comment on Java appropriateness (or lack) to app development.
I suspect availability of OpenOffice.org, even via TiltOS & X11, will dampen efforts to bring up native Haiku productivity apps.
Nah. If anything, it can only help us. Right now, what we have a sizable lack of is actively-contributing developers. This is nothing on stippi, axel, and the others -- they're great and doing everything they can. There's just not enough of them.
We're at the point where we have an operating system. True, it's nowhere near production-ready, but we have an OS. Now the problem is that we lack certain key kinds of applications. An office suite is one of them. KOffice sort of works, but not well enough to be suitable for day-to-day work or even occasional use. Having a working OpenOffice port can only help us. We don't have anywhere near the developer resources as a community to be able to develop an office suite in the near future. They're extremely complicated beasts, especially if you get to even the feature count of Writer or Word.
When it comes to the whole native apps versus ported apps thing, I believe we need to be realistic. As much as I like webpositive, creating a webbrowser that keeps up with what users have come to expect these days is pretty much a full time job. A port of Chrome and/or Firefox seems inevitable in order to fill that need. Same goes for software like Open Office, Blender, Inkscape etc. Native apps trying to keep up with such projects seems extremely unlikely. I'd prefer seeing native development done on filling gaps that porting cannot fill, and of course making sure that those applications that gets ported feel as native as possible.
It's pretty clear that there's no way there will ever be native apps able to cover all the bases so instead of 'fearing' the ports, it would be better to make sure that the native applications that exist/will exist are as polished as possible while taking advantage of the specialities Haiku has to offer (extended file attributes, replicators, translators etc).
Linux Kernel is actually written in C. Um, very close. C++ just extends C or maybe you're too dumb to realize that?
"Should I read any further? I'm guessing the errors continue at a pace."
No, do not read any further. You apparently are a "know-it-all" so why would you need to read my comments? I would really prefer you did not respond or read my comments! I will just have to igone you in the future. That is what you get back when you throw an insult to someone!
I would like to take this opportunity to recommend that we put up a bounty and port GOBE Productive 3 to Haiku. Stippi has the source code, under an NDA to GOBE. If we put up a bounty he could find the time. It is an excellent Office suite with amazing features and it is native to BeOS. Here's a detailed review:
My personal feeling is that we should have multiple Office packages for Haiku, choice is good. But primary efforts should be put in GOBE Productive, because it is native, and full featured. This software would run on netbooks like greased lightning.
I have waited for insiders coming out to speak about Gobe Productive on this topic. While an OpenOffice on Haiku must definitely be a remarkable event in the Haiku history yet to come, the underlying porting task would be enormous, and time-consuming that is imaginable even to the layman.
As an occasional user in the past, I found GP3 for Win impressive, light, fast, highly integrated and interoperable in its components and highly compatible with MS Office at least up to XP version. The last point need not be over stressed if any potential user should be given the incentive to stay royal, as one is still expected to communicate with MS Office.
The following is quoted from a interview in 2002 with the ex-boss of Gobe Software, Bruce Hammond, among others things, on making GP3 for Win compatible with BeOS, where he replies: “I think that there is some work involved to bring GP 3.x to BeOS, but it is not a mind-bending amount of work - it is straight forward stuff for the most part...” (http://www.osnews.com/story/1520).
Technicality answered, however, would the wait for the code holders to become interested a passive hope to meet the short term need for Haiku.
EDIT: I needed not to have written above had I read the message from AndrewZ above, which was posted almost at the same time (the apparent time difference is due to the time zones we are at(?)). But it's still worth to vote for AndrewZ's suggestion. With AndrewZ's information that Haiku developer Stippi is also a code holder other than Blue Lotus, what good news is better than this towards a viable modern office suite for Haiku. Thanks, AndrewZ.
I would like to take this opportunity to recommend that we put up a bounty and port GOBE Productive 3 to Haiku. Stippi has the source code, under an NDA to GOBE. If we put up a bounty he could find the time. It is an excellent Office suite with amazing features and it is native to BeOS. Here's a detailed review:
My personal feeling is that we should have multiple Office packages for Haiku, choice is good. But primary efforts should be put in GOBE Productive, because it is native, and full featured. This software would run on netbooks like greased lightning.
If you do this, bring gobe to Haiku in a dialy ,functional, stable version. It will give haiku a in to small bussiness's who would be able to offer up alot of support money. Most of us small bussiness owners are tired of dealing with Microsoft,code bloat and now everything runs in .net crippling older, yt still useable hardware.
I for one would be willing to contribute, if the developer is interested in doing the work and has a reasonable timeline.
My other question is will he do both a gcc4 and ggc2 version and when does haiku expect to reasonably break away from ggc2 ? At some point this becomes a mandatory item ?
I should point out that no Haiku developer has committed to doing anything with GOBE Productive. Stippi has the code but that's it.
I personally use Office 2010 every day. It is well designed and works well. But you do need a Dual core PC with minimum of 2 GB of RAM.
Two things need to happen to start the GOBE Haiku port, not in any particular order:
Get an estimate of coding effort from Stippi
Start bounty in Haikuware
I should point out that no Haiku developer has committed to doing anything with GOBE Productive. Stippi has the code but that's it.
I personally use Office 2010 every day. It is well designed and works well. But you do need a Dual core PC with minimum of 2 GB of RAM.
Two things need to happen to start the GOBE Haiku port, not in any particular order:
Get an estimate of coding effort from Stippi
Start bounty in Haikuware
I would state the obvious again, not to be rude but to renforce something fundemental. Without applications that the end user can capitolize on, The user base will remain small. If Hiaku is to succeed it needs to get something that small bussiness uses.Expanding use to small bussiness would be the best way to get haiku some serious footprint into the market. With that footprint will come $$$ and a demand for support, both of which enable haiku to grow into a viable alternative OS.
I am in agreement with this. A little bit of Haiku history here. For 9 years, most of the Haiku project has been focused on writing and debugging the OS. Most of the core Haiku developers are OS guys who have been focused on the OS for those 9 years. There is still a lot of work remaining to bring Haiku to Release 1.0.
That being said, Haiku has enough basic features and is stable enough for leading edge users to use. There are guys who are switching over to Haiku as their 'daily' OS. This is a really good sign. We are moving into a new era for Haiku. This one involves more focus on applications, in addition to the OS.
The new focus on applications takes several forms:
Revisiting and testing older BeOS applications (see Haikuware.com)
Bringing new developers in to create new applications on Haiku
Getting developers to port cross-platform apps (OO, KOffice, AbiWord, etc)
Getting a core Haiku developer to port GOBE Productive
The OS is stable, the tools work, the API is excellent, we need apps, so start evangelizing Haiku to developers.
I should point out that no Haiku developer has committed to doing anything with GOBE Productive. Stippi has the code but that's it.
I know of at least three Haiku developers that signed an NDA with Gobe to get access to the code with the ultimate purpose of producing a GP 3.0 for Haiku binary (Stippi was not among them). The agreement was that the devs would do the work pro bono and in exchange Gobe would make the resulting Haiku binary available for free (gratis). That sounds like a commitment based on a gentlemen agreement to me.
I have waited for insiders coming out to speak about Gobe Productive on this topic. While an OpenOffice on Haiku must definitely be a remarkable event in the Haiku history yet to come, the underlying porting task would be enormous, and time-consuming that is imaginable even to the layman.
As an occasional user in the past, I found GP3 for Win impressive, light, fast, highly integrated and interoperable in its components and highly compatible with MS Office at least up to XP version. The last point need not be over stressed if any potential user should be given the incentive to stay royal, as one is still expected to communicate with MS Office.
The following is quoted from a interview in 2002 with the ex-boss of Gobe Software, Bruce Hammond, among others things, on making GP3 for Win compatible with BeOS, where he replies: “I think that there is some work involved to bring GP 3.x to BeOS, but it is not a mind-bending amount of work - it is straight forward stuff for the most part...” (http://www.osnews.com/story/1520).
Technicality answered, however, would the wait for the code holders to become interested a passive hope to meet the short term need for Haiku.
EDIT: I needed not to have written above had I read the message from AndrewZ above, which was posted almost at the same time (the apparent time difference is due to the time zones we are at(?)). But it's still worth to vote for AndrewZ's suggestion. With AndrewZ's information that Haiku developer Stippi is also a code holder other than Blue Lotus, what good news is better than this towards a viable modern office suite for Haiku. Thanks, AndrewZ.
I haven't use open office in years. but my last impressions of it were less then favorable. Several things came to mind.
Loads of bloat, installs and behaves like spamware, install to much crap, generally ran poorly and crashed alot.
Linux Kernel is actually written in C. Um, very close. C++ just extends C or maybe you're too dumb to realize that?
"C++ just extends C" is at best a lie-to-children. Stroustrup began by adding classes to C, he added new reserved words which immediately made the new language incompatible. But C++ continued to expand and further incompatibilities were introduced, some accidental and many deliberate. Some C features, particularly to do with the naming of symbols and function prototypes are available in C++ via the extern "C" { } mechanism, but others are not available at all. Both languages continue to evolve separately, and compiler extensions also differ (e.g. the GNU C dialect has separate extensions from the GNU C++ dialect).
Rather than calling people who point out factual mistakes "dumb" you might do well to learn from those mistakes.
The agreement was that the devs would do the work pro bono
and in exchange Gobe would make the resulting Haiku binary available for free (gratis)
it could be cool, but is Gobe Productive supporting the ODF format?
Quote:
I haven't use open office in years. but my last impressions of it were less then favorable.
maybe you could try again, the loadtime has increased much.
I'm using it on a daily basis, and no crash for me when using the official version.
There is also a lighter version called OOo4kids with remove things such as the database module.
I could but I doubt I will, First off its a platform ledge to nowhere ins my sitaution, secondly we run MS windows machnies becuase they have the software we need.Linux isn't a option , so we wait for a viable alternative to MS offerings. Brining GOBE in would be a huge huge huge leap for Haiku and I would suggest that the developers find a way to make it happen.
Good apps attract clients, clietns bring $$$, money brings stability and more coders and performance.
The agreement was that the devs would do the work pro bono
and in exchange Gobe would make the resulting Haiku binary available for free (gratis)
it could be cool, but is Gobe Productive supporting the ODF format?
I have no idea. Anyway, it may be too late now, as Gobe's business does not seem to be particularly thriving (check out their website @ gobe.com or gobe.in).
Haiku could do the same except it would require X which I am against bringing to this OS. You bring X and you make this OS similar to Linux. Of course, this would be 3rd party add-on but I think we can do without it.
Haiku could do the same except it would require X which I am against bringing to this OS. You bring X and you make this OS similar to Linux. Of course, this would be 3rd party add-on but I think we can do without it.
the juice isn't worth the squeeze. To much work to port OpenOffice and a hole bunch of other problems trailing right behind it.
From interview: "But returning to OpenOffice, I have divided porting of this enormous
application into few phases. The first phase includes compiling and
running using Gtk+ (using the X server). The second phase consists of
compiling and running using Qt (without the X server). The third and
last phase is the native port, analogical to what happens to Abiword.
After a long fight the first phase has been reached, so we have
OpenOffice available on Haiku in a X server window.
After finishing with clang I plan on returning to the OpenOffice topic
and starting the second phase. I will not even try approaching the
third phase, since in my opinion it's about a few months of work
full-time, not really for one person only."
If he does the Qt port with no X server, like stated in his interview, that would be very welcome addition to Haiku! Qt runs very good on Haiku and is a nice toolkit. Qt fits right in with Haiku.
From interview: "But returning to OpenOffice, I have divided porting of this enormous
application into few phases. The first phase includes compiling and
running using Gtk+ (using the X server). The second phase consists of
compiling and running using Qt (without the X server). The third and
last phase is the native port, analogical to what happens to Abiword.
After a long fight the first phase has been reached, so we have
OpenOffice available on Haiku in a X server window.
After finishing with clang I plan on returning to the OpenOffice topic
and starting the second phase. I will not even try approaching the
third phase, since in my opinion it's about a few months of work
full-time, not really for one person only."
If he does the Qt port with no X server, like stated in his interview, that would be very welcome addition to Haiku! Qt runs very good on Haiku and is a nice toolkit. Qt fits right in with Haiku.
I will take a look at it later. I am talking to a few pressional software suppliers about using haiku as a windows alternatives. Most of them do not want to contiue investing in the more closed microsoft architecture and the exspense of the developmenet kits.
Especially considering haiku could be "in some way bundled" with their software to release on. I have spoken to 4 companys today about this and all were receptive. All 4 asked me to forward developer information.
If we as a group can make it easy for them to migrate.
They will, in droves.
Trust me. There are alot of company that do not wish to deal with microsoft anymore.
I, like many others, would not be opposed to such ports for short-term solutions to real, everyday computing problems.
But there can be no arguing that the real need is for a new, native Haiku app (or app suite) to create similar functionality in a distinctly Haiku way.
What excites me about working on Haiku is the ability to create new, well-designed, clean, minimalistic apps that I valued highly in Mac OS, with a better API design.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing new apps that reproduce functionality on other systems - but in a new idiom. It used to be the norm, and in some ways, it is the ideal for Haiku.
Haiku, Like BeOS, is as much about philosophy of app and OS design as it is about practical use and functionality. I don't think sacrificing core tenets in the name of pragmatism is worth it, IMHO.
OpenOffice community has created a new Project called LibreOffice since oracle seems to be non communicative about some projects... Anyway i think that it would be a good moment to create a official Haiku version of it.
I just wanted to say that OpenOffice only uses Java for some wizards, and I personally have never used those wizards, nor do I know anyone who has. I think that code is wholly non-critical.
I'd like to add that, however, having a JVM running on BeOS/Haiku would be a very useful thing. Java is a nice language, quite popular for many tasks, especially server side, but then there is a host of other languages running in the JVM.
Finally, I would like to remind you that BeOS does have a native office suite (so go be productive with it, already ;) ).
We were waiting more than 10 years to see our beloved BeOS to become our Haiku, being created totally from the scratch. Now after all that un-sacrificed road of success some people talking about haiku´s business complied and they are about to make all the mistakes that were skipped on the begging.
I do agree that, all kinds of software are good for haiku, especially if they are free software. But native software should be in front line of our topics, applications that gets all the benefits of the OS architecture and it´s capabilities, not the other way around.
(Regardig the Java enviroment etc.. for Haiku)
All the Java, .net platforms etc. were technology decisions that have been made to serve their creators limitations respectively.(if windows ware made right from the beggining the WinAPI would have been enough). Why do we want to be part of their limitations? In order for Haiku to succeed it needs brave and innovative decisions, Be Different… Otherwise what’s the point? We could stay with Windows and be happy…
By the way I am .Net developer ;) Nice day to all of you!!!
@VERITAS
Of course we want native applications but that fastest way to get software on Haiku is through porting POSIX/Linux applications over. Writing an application from square one is much harder and slower than changing one to work on Haiku.
Also, ports will bring in more users and developers to Haiku. Eventually these developers will either make the ports more native to Haiku or create new Haiku applications.
Waiting for native Haiku software can take forever. Better to have something to use today and worry about native programs later on.
The point is that people want programs to run on an OS. Just having an OS with few applications won't impress anybody or attract users or developers. You want to be able to do work with it. If you wait for native programs you'll only get a handful of developers working on them and take very long time to release.
@VERITAS
Of course we want native applications but that fastest way to get software on Haiku is through porting POSIX/Linux applications over. Writing an application from square one is much harder and slower than changing one to work on Haiku.
Also, ports will bring in more users and developers to Haiku. Eventually these developers will either make the ports more native to Haiku or create new Haiku applications.
Waiting for native Haiku software can take forever. Better to have something to use today and worry about native programs later on.
The point is that people want programs to run on an OS. Just having an OS with few applications won't impress anybody or attract users or developers. You want to be able to do work with it. If you wait for native programs you'll only get a handful of developers working on them and take very long time to release.
Comments
Re: Open Office In Haiku
yes, it looks promising! (even if some people would probably complain about OOo or TiltOS not being in the spirit of BeOS or Haiku...)
There is an interesting interview with the developper behind this:
http://haiku-os.pl/node/1244
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I complain that OOo and TiltOS are complicated to install :-)
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I complain that OOo and TiltOS are complicated to install :-)
Lets run a application Java. Likes thats even a good idea. Its like .net. Crap.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Both Java and .Net both have their uses. But writing desktop apps wouldn't be the best use.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Both Java and .Net both have their uses. But writing desktop apps wouldn't be the best use.
I have 2 programs I use heavily. Last year they switched both apps to .net and it was like someone tied a boat anchor to the computer. Database is alot buggier to. Lots more crashs etc.
I have heard of benchmarking being done that states if you want to kill half of your system performance, run the same task in .net. Java isn't much better. In fact I think to a large degree we'd all be better off if those 2 IL's went away.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Correct. Java is slower and more CPU intense. Many years ago, I recall using a java torrent client and another one built in C. The java one really taxed the CPU while the C coded one used very little. Night and day difference between the two.
Java was made to mainly be portable by working on any OS and hardware but with reduced performance. If you have a java virtual machine (interpreter) available on your platform you could run any java program you liked. (Java is OS & hardware independent).
.NET is competitor to Java. Works very similar. .NET programs should work on any hardware running Windows OSes.
For performance, very hard to compete with C & C++. Even other programming languages are likely faster than Java/.NET like yabasic (newer BASIC), perl, python, ..........
Java for portability but better solution is to stick with one OS (ie: Debian Linux) and recode program for different architechtures when needed. That way you still get excellent performance with just a little more work.
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it!
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Correct. Java is slower and more CPU intense. Many years ago, I recall using a java torrent client and another one built in C. The java one really taxed the CPU while the C coded one used very little. Night and day difference between the two.
Java was made to mainly be portable by working on any OS and hardware but with reduced performance. If you have a java virtual machine (interpreter) available on your platform you could run any java program you liked. (Java is OS & hardware independent).
.NET is competitor to Java. Works very similar. .NET programs should work on any hardware running Windows OSes.
For performance, very hard to compete with C & C++. Even other programming languages are likely faster than Java/.NET like yabasic (newer BASIC), perl, python, ..........
Java for portability but better solution is to stick with one OS (ie: Debian Linux) and recode program for different architechtures when needed. That way you still get excellent performance with just a little more work.
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it!
I understand the interpreted language layer issues.More wasted HP on crap that could just be written using common librarys and compiled to run under more OS's. eventually most OS application writers get to cuaght up in the eye candy. We could this neat shiny widget. Sure you could, but you strip away a bunch of computing power to do it making the computer far less effiecient.
As more people start making there own home videos in HD and even LoeDef formats we will see alot more strain on the pc and the best way to manage alot of that is to keep the OS footprint light and the same goes for the applications. Thats why I proposed vertically intergrating GPU computing power into the Haiku. Could you imagine the performance increase a native kernel intergration like this would bring to the end user. It would also make it MUCH easier for developers to tap into this power. When they aren't busy worrying about the physics of cloth on a coat :-P
Is Yabasic comparable to vb ? I am googling it now.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
OpenOffice is a C++ program ... the only place java comes into the picture is some plugins which are written in java.
I'm learning lisp at the moment and it has several advantages It can be written like python in an interpreter and compiled later for a release... it also seems to be an extremely flexible and powerful language.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
yabasic is structured BASIC. VB is object oriented. yabasic would be similar to what C is to C++. yabasic and C look fairly similar.
Good # of programs on haikuware with GUI that were made with YAB. YAB programs are mostly yabasic. YAB allows you to make a GUI program (or front end) fairly fast.
YAB (yabasic) examples:
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/development/app-installation...
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/utilities/cd-dvd-recording/qba
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/internet-network/ftp/greentu...
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/utilities/compression-archiv...
Streakx & Lelldorin do lots of YAB programs.
"OpenOffice is a C++ program ... the only place java comes into the picture is some plugins which are written in java."
Right you are! I was talking in general about Java & .NET. I was going off-topic there - sorry. :-)
Re: Open Office In Haiku
@tonestone57 I do agree with your points about interpreted languages though. That said they do have advantages for speed of development and debugging if not runtime speed which is atainable with some compilable interpreted languages.
I might look into doing a LISP (CLISP) C++ binding so programming could be done for haiku in LISP... I don't think that would incur undue overhead if it were compiled.
It seems the Open Office code still has a ways to go as the native rendering backend isn't written I think there is a backend for QT that might be worth looking into... it doesn't use the native wigets though it simulates them.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
PS: Android OS - Linux kernel + custom Java GUI. Using Java likely lowers the performance of Android devices. Linux would probably run better on them but everyone is crazy about Android OS because Google makes it!
Java is lots of things: A programming language (and quite a nice one, certainly a big improvement over C++ as used throughout Haiku); A bytecode representation; A virtual machine to run the byte code; A licensed brand of Sun Microsystems and now Oracle;
Android developers use the Java language, but neither the bytecode, VM or brand. Google developed its own bytecode and virtual machine. The emphasis in the virtual machine was on security, Android devices can determine what a particular app will do (e.g. make calls, use the Internet, determine your location with GPS) and let the user decide whether to run it. This makes it possible to run Android apps without needing to trust the entity that created them, which makes an open market for apps viable, unlike for the iPhone.
Android also includes unique technology (it's Free Software of course, but it was developed by Google) for power management. This is critical to a mobile device, and the approach taken in Android seems effective, particularly in later OS builds like Froyo. The APIs and VM for Android were built with this power saving in mind.
You can buy a smartphone with non-Android Linux, but as you observed people aren't buying as many of these as they are Android phones. Most people probably don't want to write raw C code for their phone, and those who do can 'root' Android and install non-VM binaries if they please.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
"Java is lots of things: A programming language (and quite a nice one, certainly a big improvement over C++ as used throughout Haiku);"
Irrelevant. Most OSes are programmed in C or C++ for speed. Even POSIX libraries are C coded. Java is too slow for a real OS. Android is actually a hybrid, uses Linux Kernel (C++) with Google's custom GUI (based off Java). Anything that is GUI intense on Android will take greater CPU power because of Java.
Linux has excellent security so forget about playing that card. :-)
With so many developers on Linux you would think they could create a version with greater power management. Microsoft does it with Windows CE (C++), Apple does it with iOS (C++), ......, but Linux does not? I guess no one thought of creating a Linux Mobile version?
Power saving is about: turning off the screen, reducing clock frequencies on CPU & GPU (lower power consumption), less power use on screen (brightness) and going into (low power) standby when not in use. It makes you wonder why Android can do these better than Linux.
If Java was so great Sun should have programmed all of StarOffice (OpenOffice) with it and see what happened. Then you would see what dog slow meant.
Many OSes, SDL/OpenGL/DirectX games (complex not simple ones) and other big programs are done in C++ or C for high performance!
My off-topic rant on Java and Android OS. :-)
I think I've said enough on it.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
If Java was so great Sun should have programmed all of StarOffice (OpenOffice) with it and see what happened. Then you would see what dog slow meant.
StarOffice was an existing product with a development history behind it. It was from a German company called StarDivision and already written using their own cross-platform C++ framework called StarView. Sun not throwing out all that code and not rewriting in Java is no a comment on Java appropriateness (or lack) to app development.
I suspect availability of OpenOffice.org, even via TiltOS & X11, will dampen efforts to bring up native Haiku productivity apps.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Good catch dru. Bad example on my part. Java has been around over 10 years and not caught on. That has to tell you something at least. :-)
With OpenOffice on Haiku, native office suite would probably get delayed being coded. Not ideal situation but better than nothing?
Re: Open Office In Haiku
StarOffice was an existing product with a development history behind it. It was from a German company called StarDivision and already written using their own cross-platform C++ framework called StarView. Sun not throwing out all that code and not rewriting in Java is no a comment on Java appropriateness (or lack) to app development.
I suspect availability of OpenOffice.org, even via TiltOS & X11, will dampen efforts to bring up native Haiku productivity apps.
Nah. If anything, it can only help us. Right now, what we have a sizable lack of is actively-contributing developers. This is nothing on stippi, axel, and the others -- they're great and doing everything they can. There's just not enough of them.
We're at the point where we have an operating system. True, it's nowhere near production-ready, but we have an OS. Now the problem is that we lack certain key kinds of applications. An office suite is one of them. KOffice sort of works, but not well enough to be suitable for day-to-day work or even occasional use. Having a working OpenOffice port can only help us. We don't have anywhere near the developer resources as a community to be able to develop an office suite in the near future. They're extremely complicated beasts, especially if you get to even the feature count of Writer or Word.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
No, the Linux kernel is not written in C++
Should I read any further? I'm guessing the errors continue at a pace.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
When it comes to the whole native apps versus ported apps thing, I believe we need to be realistic. As much as I like webpositive, creating a webbrowser that keeps up with what users have come to expect these days is pretty much a full time job. A port of Chrome and/or Firefox seems inevitable in order to fill that need. Same goes for software like Open Office, Blender, Inkscape etc. Native apps trying to keep up with such projects seems extremely unlikely. I'd prefer seeing native development done on filling gaps that porting cannot fill, and of course making sure that those applications that gets ported feel as native as possible.
It's pretty clear that there's no way there will ever be native apps able to cover all the bases so instead of 'fearing' the ports, it would be better to make sure that the native applications that exist/will exist are as polished as possible while taking advantage of the specialities Haiku has to offer (extended file attributes, replicators, translators etc).
Re: Open Office In Haiku
"No, the Linux kernel is not written in C++"
Linux Kernel is actually written in C. Um, very close. C++ just extends C or maybe you're too dumb to realize that?
"Should I read any further? I'm guessing the errors continue at a pace."
No, do not read any further. You apparently are a "know-it-all" so why would you need to read my comments? I would really prefer you did not respond or read my comments! I will just have to igone you in the future. That is what you get back when you throw an insult to someone!
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I would like to take this opportunity to recommend that we put up a bounty and port GOBE Productive 3 to Haiku. Stippi has the source code, under an NDA to GOBE. If we put up a bounty he could find the time. It is an excellent Office suite with amazing features and it is native to BeOS. Here's a detailed review:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q2/gobe/gobe-1.html
My personal feeling is that we should have multiple Office packages for Haiku, choice is good. But primary efforts should be put in GOBE Productive, because it is native, and full featured. This software would run on netbooks like greased lightning.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I have waited for insiders coming out to speak about Gobe Productive on this topic. While an OpenOffice on Haiku must definitely be a remarkable event in the Haiku history yet to come, the underlying porting task would be enormous, and time-consuming that is imaginable even to the layman.
As an occasional user in the past, I found GP3 for Win impressive, light, fast, highly integrated and interoperable in its components and highly compatible with MS Office at least up to XP version. The last point need not be over stressed if any potential user should be given the incentive to stay royal, as one is still expected to communicate with MS Office.
The following is quoted from a interview in 2002 with the ex-boss of Gobe Software, Bruce Hammond, among others things, on making GP3 for Win compatible with BeOS, where he replies: “I think that there is some work involved to bring GP 3.x to BeOS, but it is not a mind-bending amount of work - it is straight forward stuff for the most part...” (http://www.osnews.com/story/1520).
Technicality answered, however, would the wait for the code holders to become interested a passive hope to meet the short term need for Haiku.
EDIT: I needed not to have written above had I read the message from AndrewZ above, which was posted almost at the same time (the apparent time difference is due to the time zones we are at(?)). But it's still worth to vote for AndrewZ's suggestion. With AndrewZ's information that Haiku developer Stippi is also a code holder other than Blue Lotus, what good news is better than this towards a viable modern office suite for Haiku. Thanks, AndrewZ.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I would like to take this opportunity to recommend that we put up a bounty and port GOBE Productive 3 to Haiku. Stippi has the source code, under an NDA to GOBE. If we put up a bounty he could find the time. It is an excellent Office suite with amazing features and it is native to BeOS. Here's a detailed review:
http://arstechnica.com/reviews/02q2/gobe/gobe-1.html
My personal feeling is that we should have multiple Office packages for Haiku, choice is good. But primary efforts should be put in GOBE Productive, because it is native, and full featured. This software would run on netbooks like greased lightning.
If you do this, bring gobe to Haiku in a dialy ,functional, stable version. It will give haiku a in to small bussiness's who would be able to offer up alot of support money. Most of us small bussiness owners are tired of dealing with Microsoft,code bloat and now everything runs in .net crippling older, yt still useable hardware.
I for one would be willing to contribute, if the developer is interested in doing the work and has a reasonable timeline.
My other question is will he do both a gcc4 and ggc2 version and when does haiku expect to reasonably break away from ggc2 ? At some point this becomes a mandatory item ?
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I should point out that no Haiku developer has committed to doing anything with GOBE Productive. Stippi has the code but that's it.
I personally use Office 2010 every day. It is well designed and works well. But you do need a Dual core PC with minimum of 2 GB of RAM.
Two things need to happen to start the GOBE Haiku port, not in any particular order:
Get an estimate of coding effort from Stippi
Start bounty in Haikuware
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I should point out that no Haiku developer has committed to doing anything with GOBE Productive. Stippi has the code but that's it.
I personally use Office 2010 every day. It is well designed and works well. But you do need a Dual core PC with minimum of 2 GB of RAM.
Two things need to happen to start the GOBE Haiku port, not in any particular order:
Get an estimate of coding effort from Stippi
Start bounty in Haikuware
I would state the obvious again, not to be rude but to renforce something fundemental. Without applications that the end user can capitolize on, The user base will remain small. If Hiaku is to succeed it needs to get something that small bussiness uses.Expanding use to small bussiness would be the best way to get haiku some serious footprint into the market. With that footprint will come $$$ and a demand for support, both of which enable haiku to grow into a viable alternative OS.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I am in agreement with this. A little bit of Haiku history here. For 9 years, most of the Haiku project has been focused on writing and debugging the OS. Most of the core Haiku developers are OS guys who have been focused on the OS for those 9 years. There is still a lot of work remaining to bring Haiku to Release 1.0.
That being said, Haiku has enough basic features and is stable enough for leading edge users to use. There are guys who are switching over to Haiku as their 'daily' OS. This is a really good sign. We are moving into a new era for Haiku. This one involves more focus on applications, in addition to the OS.
The new focus on applications takes several forms:
Revisiting and testing older BeOS applications (see Haikuware.com)
Bringing new developers in to create new applications on Haiku
Getting developers to port cross-platform apps (OO, KOffice, AbiWord, etc)
Getting a core Haiku developer to port GOBE Productive
The OS is stable, the tools work, the API is excellent, we need apps, so start evangelizing Haiku to developers.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I should point out that no Haiku developer has committed to doing anything with GOBE Productive. Stippi has the code but that's it.
I know of at least three Haiku developers that signed an NDA with Gobe to get access to the code with the ultimate purpose of producing a GP 3.0 for Haiku binary (Stippi was not among them). The agreement was that the devs would do the work pro bono and in exchange Gobe would make the resulting Haiku binary available for free (gratis). That sounds like a commitment based on a gentlemen agreement to me.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I have waited for insiders coming out to speak about Gobe Productive on this topic. While an OpenOffice on Haiku must definitely be a remarkable event in the Haiku history yet to come, the underlying porting task would be enormous, and time-consuming that is imaginable even to the layman.
As an occasional user in the past, I found GP3 for Win impressive, light, fast, highly integrated and interoperable in its components and highly compatible with MS Office at least up to XP version. The last point need not be over stressed if any potential user should be given the incentive to stay royal, as one is still expected to communicate with MS Office.
The following is quoted from a interview in 2002 with the ex-boss of Gobe Software, Bruce Hammond, among others things, on making GP3 for Win compatible with BeOS, where he replies: “I think that there is some work involved to bring GP 3.x to BeOS, but it is not a mind-bending amount of work - it is straight forward stuff for the most part...” (http://www.osnews.com/story/1520).
Technicality answered, however, would the wait for the code holders to become interested a passive hope to meet the short term need for Haiku.
EDIT: I needed not to have written above had I read the message from AndrewZ above, which was posted almost at the same time (the apparent time difference is due to the time zones we are at(?)). But it's still worth to vote for AndrewZ's suggestion. With AndrewZ's information that Haiku developer Stippi is also a code holder other than Blue Lotus, what good news is better than this towards a viable modern office suite for Haiku. Thanks, AndrewZ.
I haven't use open office in years. but my last impressions of it were less then favorable. Several things came to mind.
Loads of bloat, installs and behaves like spamware, install to much crap, generally ran poorly and crashed alot.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Linux Kernel is actually written in C. Um, very close. C++ just extends C or maybe you're too dumb to realize that?
"C++ just extends C" is at best a lie-to-children. Stroustrup began by adding classes to C, he added new reserved words which immediately made the new language incompatible. But C++ continued to expand and further incompatibilities were introduced, some accidental and many deliberate. Some C features, particularly to do with the naming of symbols and function prototypes are available in C++ via the extern "C" { } mechanism, but others are not available at all. Both languages continue to evolve separately, and compiler extensions also differ (e.g. the GNU C dialect has separate extensions from the GNU C++ dialect).
Rather than calling people who point out factual mistakes "dumb" you might do well to learn from those mistakes.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
troll alert! troll alert!
NoHaikuForMe ("know-it-all")
Please ignore the little troll and one day he may go away!
Your post has been ignored.
You apparently have trouble seeing the bigger picture. You only like to focus on the smaller details.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
The agreement was that the devs would do the work pro bono
and in exchange Gobe would make the resulting Haiku binary available for free (gratis)
it could be cool, but is Gobe Productive supporting the ODF format?
I haven't use open office in years. but my last impressions of it were less then favorable.
maybe you could try again, the loadtime has increased much.
I'm using it on a daily basis, and no crash for me when using the official version.
There is also a lighter version called OOo4kids with remove things such as the database module.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
The agreement was that the devs would do the work pro bono
and in exchange Gobe would make the resulting Haiku binary available for free (gratis)
it could be cool, but is Gobe Productive supporting the ODF format?
I haven't use open office in years. but my last impressions of it were less then favorable.
maybe you could try again, the loadtime has increased much.
I'm using it on a daily basis, and no crash for me when using the official version.
There is also a lighter version called OOo4kids with remove things such as the database module.
I could but I doubt I will, First off its a platform ledge to nowhere ins my sitaution, secondly we run MS windows machnies becuase they have the software we need.Linux isn't a option , so we wait for a viable alternative to MS offerings. Brining GOBE in would be a huge huge huge leap for Haiku and I would suggest that the developers find a way to make it happen.
Good apps attract clients, clietns bring $$$, money brings stability and more coders and performance.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
The agreement was that the devs would do the work pro bono
and in exchange Gobe would make the resulting Haiku binary available for free (gratis)
it could be cool, but is Gobe Productive supporting the ODF format?
I have no idea. Anyway, it may be too late now, as Gobe's business does not seem to be particularly thriving (check out their website @ gobe.com or gobe.in).
Gobe went to India hoping to sell low cost office suite there. Way better deal compared to Microsoft Office.
But with OpenOffice and Abiword they may have hard time competing. Who wants Gobe's when they can get office software for free?
MacOS X also started off with non-native OpenOffice. After which they updated it to use native GUI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openoffice#Native_desktop_integration
Haiku could do the same except it would require X which I am against bringing to this OS. You bring X and you make this OS similar to Linux. Of course, this would be 3rd party add-on but I think we can do without it.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Gobe went to India hoping to sell low cost office suite there. Way better deal compared to Microsoft Office.
But with OpenOffice and Abiword they may have hard time competing. Who wants Gobe's when they can get office software for free?
MacOS X also started off with non-native OpenOffice. After which they updated it to use native GUI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openoffice#Native_desktop_integration
Haiku could do the same except it would require X which I am against bringing to this OS. You bring X and you make this OS similar to Linux. Of course, this would be 3rd party add-on but I think we can do without it.
the juice isn't worth the squeeze. To much work to port OpenOffice and a hole bunch of other problems trailing right behind it.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
"To much work to port OpenOffice and a hole bunch of other problems trailing right behind it."
Work has already started on getting OpenOffice on Haiku. Screenshot of working version using X server on Haiku. See here (& read the interview):
http://haikuware.com/20100815523/interview-grzegorz-d%C4%85browski-of-ti...
From interview:
"But returning to OpenOffice, I have divided porting of this enormous
application into few phases. The first phase includes compiling and
running using Gtk+ (using the X server). The second phase consists of
compiling and running using Qt (without the X server). The third and
last phase is the native port, analogical to what happens to Abiword.
After a long fight the first phase has been reached, so we have
OpenOffice available on Haiku in a X server window.
After finishing with clang I plan on returning to the OpenOffice topic
and starting the second phase. I will not even try approaching the
third phase, since in my opinion it's about a few months of work
full-time, not really for one person only."
If he does the Qt port with no X server, like stated in his interview, that would be very welcome addition to Haiku! Qt runs very good on Haiku and is a nice toolkit. Qt fits right in with Haiku.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
"To much work to port OpenOffice and a hole bunch of other problems trailing right behind it."
Work has already started on getting OpenOffice on Haiku. Screenshot of working version using X server on Haiku. See here (& read the interview):
http://haikuware.com/20100815523/interview-grzegorz-d%C4%85browski-of-ti...
From interview:
"But returning to OpenOffice, I have divided porting of this enormous
application into few phases. The first phase includes compiling and
running using Gtk+ (using the X server). The second phase consists of
compiling and running using Qt (without the X server). The third and
last phase is the native port, analogical to what happens to Abiword.
After a long fight the first phase has been reached, so we have
OpenOffice available on Haiku in a X server window.
After finishing with clang I plan on returning to the OpenOffice topic
and starting the second phase. I will not even try approaching the
third phase, since in my opinion it's about a few months of work
full-time, not really for one person only."
If he does the Qt port with no X server, like stated in his interview, that would be very welcome addition to Haiku! Qt runs very good on Haiku and is a nice toolkit. Qt fits right in with Haiku.
I will take a look at it later. I am talking to a few pressional software suppliers about using haiku as a windows alternatives. Most of them do not want to contiue investing in the more closed microsoft architecture and the exspense of the developmenet kits.
Especially considering haiku could be "in some way bundled" with their software to release on. I have spoken to 4 companys today about this and all were receptive. All 4 asked me to forward developer information.
If we as a group can make it easy for them to migrate.
They will, in droves.
Trust me. There are alot of company that do not wish to deal with microsoft anymore.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I, like many others, would not be opposed to such ports for short-term solutions to real, everyday computing problems.
But there can be no arguing that the real need is for a new, native Haiku app (or app suite) to create similar functionality in a distinctly Haiku way.
What excites me about working on Haiku is the ability to create new, well-designed, clean, minimalistic apps that I valued highly in Mac OS, with a better API design.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with writing new apps that reproduce functionality on other systems - but in a new idiom. It used to be the norm, and in some ways, it is the ideal for Haiku.
Haiku, Like BeOS, is as much about philosophy of app and OS design as it is about practical use and functionality. I don't think sacrificing core tenets in the name of pragmatism is worth it, IMHO.
My $0.02
Re: Open Office In Haiku
OpenOffice community has created a new Project called LibreOffice since oracle seems to be non communicative about some projects... Anyway i think that it would be a good moment to create a official Haiku version of it.
http://www.documentfoundation.org/faq/
Re: Open Office In Haiku
Hey all,
I just wanted to say that OpenOffice only uses Java for some wizards, and I personally have never used those wizards, nor do I know anyone who has. I think that code is wholly non-critical.
I'd like to add that, however, having a JVM running on BeOS/Haiku would be a very useful thing. Java is a nice language, quite popular for many tasks, especially server side, but then there is a host of other languages running in the JVM.
Finally, I would like to remind you that BeOS does have a native office suite (so go be productive with it, already ;) ).
Re: Open Office In Haiku
I am a Java Developer at work, but since Haiku is a Desktop "EndUser" OS it is indeed questionable if Desktop Java for haiku makes sense..
Re: Open Office In Haiku
We need a Haiku exclusive office suite that has the ability to load a variety of formats.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
We were waiting more than 10 years to see our beloved BeOS to become our Haiku, being created totally from the scratch. Now after all that un-sacrificed road of success some people talking about haiku´s business complied and they are about to make all the mistakes that were skipped on the begging.
I do agree that, all kinds of software are good for haiku, especially if they are free software. But native software should be in front line of our topics, applications that gets all the benefits of the OS architecture and it´s capabilities, not the other way around.
(Regardig the Java enviroment etc.. for Haiku)
All the Java, .net platforms etc. were technology decisions that have been made to serve their creators limitations respectively.(if windows ware made right from the beggining the WinAPI would have been enough). Why do we want to be part of their limitations? In order for Haiku to succeed it needs brave and innovative decisions, Be Different… Otherwise what’s the point? We could stay with Windows and be happy…
By the way I am .Net developer ;) Nice day to all of you!!!
Re: Open Office In Haiku
@VERITAS
Of course we want native applications but that fastest way to get software on Haiku is through porting POSIX/Linux applications over. Writing an application from square one is much harder and slower than changing one to work on Haiku.
Also, ports will bring in more users and developers to Haiku. Eventually these developers will either make the ports more native to Haiku or create new Haiku applications.
Waiting for native Haiku software can take forever. Better to have something to use today and worry about native programs later on.
The point is that people want programs to run on an OS. Just having an OS with few applications won't impress anybody or attract users or developers. You want to be able to do work with it. If you wait for native programs you'll only get a handful of developers working on them and take very long time to release.
Re: Open Office In Haiku
@VERITAS
Of course we want native applications but that fastest way to get software on Haiku is through porting POSIX/Linux applications over. Writing an application from square one is much harder and slower than changing one to work on Haiku.
Also, ports will bring in more users and developers to Haiku. Eventually these developers will either make the ports more native to Haiku or create new Haiku applications.
Waiting for native Haiku software can take forever. Better to have something to use today and worry about native programs later on.
The point is that people want programs to run on an OS. Just having an OS with few applications won't impress anybody or attract users or developers. You want to be able to do work with it. If you wait for native programs you'll only get a handful of developers working on them and take very long time to release.
A OS is a application facilitator. Nothing more.