porting rpm to haiku?

Its portable. Its pointless. BeOS is too unlike UNIX for porting out of the UNIX package managers. Someones already working on a system anyway.

rpm+yum or urpmi is also utter arse compared to dpkg+apt-get.

Linux package managers, while appropriate for Linux, have no place in the realms of BeOS. It would be similar to having a ricer's tricked-out Honda Civic street racer at a Corvette show - totally out of place. There are already plans in the works to use packages which are in the style of MacOS packages. If, for some reason, that those don't work out (which I doubt), I worked on a package system (that is mostly finished) that would work well, too, that is very BeOS-like in spirit.

You said right thing - installing is sloooow. My games are installing ~45-60 minutes, but I just want to run them, not sit and wait! I just want to have programs on my machine, I don't mind where they are on a disk. I just want to use programs, not play with installing them. MacOS way is good way. I would love Haiku, if it use bundles like MacOS. I can play with dependencies, when it is fast. So I think, that the best way would be dynamicaly linked programs (cause when you have bundle staticaly linked and when it use many libraries it can be few MB bigger than dynamicaly linked version).[/b]

I think you're seriously missing something here. An operating system's job is to get out of the way and allow you to use your software.

What you're probably looking for is badly designed/written software that takes work to install and use. I guarantee you will never cease to find this - so I think you'll always be happy.

Just keep in mind that while you're trying to use all that poorly written software that barely works, and takes hours to install and make functional, you will probably need access to the internet, a browser, maybe IRC, and email - a command shell, a decent text editor, maybe some development tools and a hex editor.

You will of course, just expect this "standard" software to work, and be there. Afterall, who wants to waste all that time making a text editor work when they could be trying to get some other poorly written app working that the user doesn't really need to use - just play with for a day or two.

In other words:

Many people consider a computer to be a tool - they need it to do their job. When tools break, or require "maintenance" to make them work - they become substantially less useful.

Others consider computers to be a hobby - and these people find great pleasure in hacking around with them and spending lots of time "experiencing" what you describe.

Most people here will probably fall into both of those categories - but the end goal is to make the operating system useful for those who don't have the time to screw around with it. It is open-source, afterall, so you can always go into the source and add a "random-crash" somewhere that gives you what you desire ;)

You can also write your own packaging/installation tool and re-package every piece of software on bebits if you want using it... but don't expect the people that are building Haiku to understand - the end goal is to have a simple, elegant system that does only what it needs to do and gets out of the way. It's easier to start simple and add complexity later than it is to do the reverse.

This is the point where you should ask yourself which OS can give you what you aim for. Haiku is definitely not Linux or Windows.
Haiku's goal is to create an administration-free, easy to use, powerful OS (see our homepage). Apart from "powerful" this is the opposite of what Linux aims for. You won't be happy with Haiku, so I suggest that you use Linux or Windows instead.

Didn't you say that you never used MacOS?

We don't want a black box. The Windows registry is a black box. Most of my friends think that the linux settings and scripts are a black box.
A black box is only so long a black box as you don't know enough about it.

I think that it's possible to make the OS simple enough that you can completely understand it without spending much time on learning. For example, by drag-n-drop installing you don't have anything going on in the background and no hidden magic.
nothing to learn => no black box

It's not like our goal is to do 5% of all the things out there. :)
We are here because we share a common goal: We all think that simpler is better and we want to do 100% of the things that matter in the most efficient and simple way. From your point of view we might have gone nuts, but that's what we think (and we are not alone).

The rest has already been said by other people.

I'm really chuffed you're going down Bundle route. It's the only way!

A bit of a newbie question about another Mac feature. Is there a library system with built-in versioning that works like OS X Frameworks?

This thread highlights why Haiku is needed. I want a OS that is totally transparent in normal use, but totally open when I choose to open it.

Unfortunately, Fanton has hit the nail on the head with Linux. Some users will never want the system to be silent and transparent. Installing and configuring the lengthy, complicated way, is part of the joy. Anything else is seen as dumbing down.

Fanton - you can put app bundles anywhere in the filesystem you want, and call them anything you like (and there's no hardcoded paths that will break when you move it!). They work transparently UNTIL you open them. And then you'll find XML config files, icons files, language localisation. All sorts for you to go in and configure to your heart's content. You really need to spend time with a Mac to see why it's the right thing.

Thanks,
Chris

How it can be bought? yellowTab can just do a fork. They can't buy Haiku, because nobody is its owner.

Zeta will scab off the great work of the Haiku guys by integrating it's operating system with Haiku components over time.

But an MIT/BSD-Styled license is better then the swirling vortex of doom the GPL brings - i.e. it's supposed to be free for everyone.

It made perfect sense 10 years ago, when the likes of Gnu, Linux, BSD and others were just babies. Now with a firm foundation it's just restricting the progress of free software.

Besides, GNU Software still makes people money. Look at Red Hat. Look at Cedega.

I have to second that. If you want Linux, well, you've got Linux. Creating the same usability nightmare a second time would be pointless.

Sorry that I'm chiming in so late - this one's a lively discussion!

While I can't exactly agree with your methodology, fanton (clicking Next a few hundred times a day bores the hell out of me), I understand where you're coming from.

Like red_devel says in his post:

Linux allows you to "do it your way." But forget about using package managers that lay out everything where it is so that the other packages know where to go. I'm no guru, but it seems to me you'd virtually have to go to LFS to get the level of control that you want.

By the same token, Linux is not Haiku or BeOS. If I was really, really pushed, I'd say it's closer to a BSD, because BSDs have that cohesiveness that Linux tends to lack.

The reply was going to be long and windy, but I feel Clebin said it best:

Me, I'd be happy if Haiku turned out to be something that doesn't get in my way when I'm trying to work. And I definitely think there's going to be a place for Haiku on corporate desktops in the future. I'd love bundled packing ala MacOS simply because phone support would be that much easier.

Cheers,
togs

For those interested, I restarted the discussion on the Glass Elevator mailinglist (Subject: Installer):
http://www.bug-br.org.br/pipermail/glasselevator-talk/2005-December/thre...

Bye,
Waldemar

LMAO. Don't ever compare Linux to FreeBSD. There is a world of difference. Linux is a hacky kernel, FreeBSD is an Operating System. :wink:.

But seriously, from what i understand in Linux there's one person (Linus) with write capabilities to the latest resp?

In FreeBSD there is more then one, and there are complex rules to how things should go about being done. There are hundreds of maintainers, programmers, and i think a board that oversees everything. Everything is done right.

Linux isn't some great god OS like people think. It's written poorly, It's called a Hack.

I don't understand what your saying. BSD License = Free. Gnu License = Free with limitations. Those limitiations WERE required, otherwise it would not work. There weren't any alternatives. It's 2005, theres plenty of "free" software.

Read above. It is just now a restrictive whirlpool of death. Useless IMHO, no matter how useful it was.

Go try FreeBSD or NetBSD.

No, everyone deserves there opinion - That's another thing that could be good about Haiku.

To get back to the subject, Haiku needs something like the package system BeOS has now. It's useful (it could do with some tweaking/features), but overall it's ok to use.

Installers _MUST_ be graphically based.

However, i do agree that being able to install them via command line _as well_ is a good idea. It keeps your options open.

Again, this is Console. It _HAS_ to be GUI based. Think about who will use this OS? 99% of people dislike terminals. There is no reason for them in a desktop OS. Linux is not a desktop OS.

Most people want a prompt and easy installation and [IMHO] something packaged in a single file.

What BeOS has now is sounding better and better each time i think about it. :lol:..

I understand what you're saying there. Move anything anywhere, but have the OS keep track so that if you remove it, it'll remove everything and not just remove the stuff in the standard location, then complain about the rest missing.

I don't see why, but I get what you're saying. :P

fanton, you might want to try Stall http://www.bebits.com/app/933 for BeOS
It's an installer/uninstaller that works with attributes. It has been very good as an unistaller for me and works whether files or folders are moved or not.

Quote from BeBits page:
About Stall:
Stall is a smart Installer and Uninstaller, with two special features. First, it uses BFS attributes to keep track of which files are part of a particular installation, so it is unlikely to lose files. Second, it is designed to be able to treat any software as an "installation".

PREREQUISITES
You need Marco's liblayout to use this program. You can find it on BeWare, if you don't already have it. If you want to compile the code, you also need Santa's Gift Bag, which you can get from BeWare or BeBits...

I think it should work with all BeOS versions but no guarantees---try compiling it and let me know.

TO INSTALL:
Drop a folder on the Stall executable (why not try it with the Stall folder now?). It will prompt you for the name you want to refer to this installation.

TO UNINSTALL:
Double-click the Stall executable. It will display a selection of current installations. Double-click an installation to see what's in it. Select some subset of the installations. Click "Uninstall". It will ask you whether you want to Cancel, Clean up, or Nuke those installations. Cancel if you're not sure.

Clean up will remove the installation records from your disk but not touch the files' contents. Nuke will remove the installation information, and delete any files that are no longer claimed by any installations. Close the "Installation Manager" window when you're done.

Installations are identified to the system by the presence of the Stall::id BFS string attribute, which contains a comma-separated list of the IDs of the installations this file is part of. IDs are 64-bit values formed as follows:
bigtime_t id = real_time_clock_usecs()+bigtime_t(getpid())[shiftleft]48;
It's unlikely two installations will be created in the same millisecond on one computer. It's VERY unlikely they will be created in the same millisecond on different computers by processes with the same pid. This value is then stored in the attribute as hex representations with sprintf(str,"\%016Lx",id).

The auto-expanding capability uses add-ons for its functionality. Check out Stall_addon.h or GenericExpander_addon/GenericExpander.cpp for details on writing your own. [Note that this doesn't work as of version 0.5.]

If you improve the program, please send your changes back to me (diffs are better than a whole archive, but I'd rather an archive than not toget the changes) so I can roll them back into the source.

It's suprising I don't see it used more often. Another app on BeBits that deserves more credit and exposure is Deposit http://www.bebits.com/app/308 a launcher writen for BeOS back in 1999. It's old and could stand to be updated for the new versions, but it gives you an idea of what has been possible to do in BeOS for a long time that you still can't do with as much elegence anywhere else I know of.

If you have any trouble with getting either app, email me and I'll get them to you.

so stall give all files in the folder an attribute with the app name and then when you install it it knows where the file are?
But what happens to files that a app create during his live? like a preference file this file may not have the attribute and then stay after a uninstall?

Why is it more efficient than having putting all the files, including all the dependencies into a set format in a single app folder?

You want to do things yourself - why rely on an uninstaller to have a list of all the files in all the separate folders and uninstall the app for you? Wouldn't you prefer to delete it yourself?

Why have the system manage your dependencies for you when it doesn't need to. It's adding needless complexity and potential for things to go wrong and an another reason it'll be difficult to clear all the files off your computer without an uninstaller.

Put all the files and dependencies in a folder. Give it a standardised layout for config files, languages, etc.

If you the app requires customisation, then use an installer, or use a set up wizard on launching the app for the first time.

But don't create dependencies, litter files across the file system with hard-coded paths, don't require the system to maintain a list of where everything is. Each app should be in a self-contained folder and open to customisation.

It is so important to get away from package managers of any kind!

Chris

How do you know what these files are called? How do you know ALL the files that belong to an app? You don't! With your system you'd have to learn what all the files are.

Now, the other way. You know where the app is, so if the files are with the app you know what all the files are. If they are in a set format within the bundle, you know what they all do. THAT is intuitive!

You're relunctant to give a chance to a new way of working, even though it might turn out to be a better way.

How cares about disk space? This is 2005 and we have gigabytes of the stuff. I'd rather my app never ever breaks whatever I go on to install.

Chris

Clebin, I care about disk space for one. Just because large disks are cheap is no excuse for wasting it or cluttering the space up with unnessisary data. It only slows down access times. Your space would be better used as a backup directory, something not enough people do often enough.

I also use BeOS/BeIA on a wide range of hardware. Any decisions made on package managers and directory structures will affect EVERYONE who uses the OS. I would prefer an intelligent default (compramise) be chosen for those new to the OS while retaining whatever flexibility is possible without giving up too much. In other words, I don't want to see another do-it-all-OS that trades off almost all of it's working benefits for it's 'user options'. Simple, ellegant, and above all quick and useful.

fanton, a little extra disk space lying unused here and there? Get the Personel Edition of BeOS and start testing out some ideas, yours and others. Even if the system doesn't do it for you, you can set up your file system how you think you want it and see if it works out as you thought. Try a few other ideas and see if someone else might have hit on something you overlooked. It's a great way to kill time and keeps you out of the bar or trouble.

Don't forget to try some of the older programs written for BeOS too. There's some real gems hidden there that don't always get talked about like the flashy new stuff, but are well worth considering when deciding where to go with Haiku. Some like the two I already mentioned, Stall and Deposit, highlight the power of Be's design and show how simple yet powerful things can work for the user and the developer. What would it take to do either one in Windows and have it work as well?