porting rpm to haiku?
haiku needs some form of executable file or package. something like windows' msi or rpm/apt-get. in macos there are dmg files. it would be nice to have something like that for haiku.
is is possible to port rpm to haiku?
since haiku is based on beos, and beos is posix compliant, it might just work. i know befs is somewhat simmilar to ext2fs so permissions are there. except that in beos there is only one user "baron".
Comments
porting rpm to haiku?
I think it has to waste some space. There is no way anybody would make the perfect installer that never wastes any space, and always clean, etc.
I think critical apps (only the most necessary ones!) should be available both in gui and text-mode (despite what other people say). And Haiku should boot in textmode as well (a very useful failsafe). So I would try to build the package manager as a text mode app (which is portable), then a frontend in Haiku after i see it works.
I have an AthlonXP. I will probably install BeOS Max edition .
porting rpm to haiku?
Try Dev 1.1, and then go hunting for patches at BeBits. Dev 1.1 doesn't have the linux-like crud Max ed. does.
And the installer system should be GUI based, with a console add-on. Not the other way around. Haiku should be innovative, not just another stick in the mud.
version
fanton, Max or Dev doesn't really matter. My point is that if you start with a very clean install of BeOS and discriminatingly add apps a few at a time so you can take time to get to know them, you can get an idea of what the essence of BeOS was weant to be. Think of it as a learning experience and try to explore some of the little touches which made Be stand out in the first place.
Nothing ever remains the same, and as you add more complexity to anything it nessesitates certain changes be made to it. When you start with knowing the little extras and tricks that made a lot of early adopters such diehard BeOS users, then you have a more balanced view of what you can gain and lose when it comes time to weigh out the costs and benefits of what and how changes are made to accomadate new features and the costs of supporting them.
Everyone also has their likes and dislikes, their little favorites, and they can't all be brought along into the future of Haiku. We can try to preserve as many as possible though if we plan ahead and chose our options wisely. I personally will miss the old 'slidey tabs' very much, but it looks as if they will be a thing of the past from much of what I have read. We still have things like 'the twitcher'' attributes and all the wonders they bring with them, replicants, fantasticly balanced SMP and multithreaded everything to use it, and a lot more. There's no way I'd like to trade-off some of what we have just so I can do some flashy new trick that I'll most likely only use a few times.
ChrisK, I use BeOS on a network as a media terminal in a Boundless Technologies Virgin Webplayer, an old internet appliance similar in form to a laptop. It has 64 mg RAM and a 144 mg DOC (disk on chip) and is running a Geode CPU overclocked to 300MHz. I also use it on several other old IA's and thinclients with a modification here and there. I hope to be doing the same with Haiku someday. You always have the option to waste space if you want, but with so many devices getting more and more power these days, I may soon be able to use Haiku in a whole range of things as a top-to-bottom, end-to-end system for my personel home and mobile needs. I suppose there'll always be a few spots it won't fit, but where it will, it's generally easier for me to setup and use than Linux. I'd like to see that get even better, so why make anything any bigger than need be unless there is a compelling reason to. A package manager or whatever can also have choices built in to it to cater to differing tastes, but to do these sort of things you need to make some other choices ahead of time and do some planning.
porting rpm to haiku?
I do agree with you about running apps in text-mode. I adminstrate a Mac web server using SSH and you're able to use the installer and mount disk images this way. So I really appreciate this functionality.
Talking about shared libraries: The Amiga had a requirement that all libraries be completely backwards compatible. On OS X there's a lovely versioning system for system libraries/frameworks with a symlink to the latest - something like this:
blah.framework
--current -> 1.1
--versions
----1.0
----1.1
Most standard libraries could be supported in this way. Keeping multiple copies of less well-known or trusted libraries wrapped up with the app wouldn't make a big dent in disk space.
What's the situation with BeOS? I've always wished I knew more about it! After Amiga, I waited an eternity for the PIOS One machine to come out... :cry:
Chris
porting rpm to haiku?
Building a gui program is mostly about buttons and colors and positioning the lables, etc, functionality is still in the background (the program logic). So why not build the logic first as a shell app. Any extra functionality would be added later in the frontend.
I agree with you agreeing with me :D
porting rpm to haiku?
I agree with you in a way. Applications should be split into two areas: The Gui, and the Model. The model is the backend, it does the real work. This should be the case for all official Haiku apps.
BTW Building a gui program is about components, colours, and positioning, yes. Building a GOOD gui app takes alot more then that. An installer would need to be designed (IMHO) to make sure the user is as less annoyed as possible, and the install is as quick and simple as possible.
porting rpm to haiku?
Mac OS X is hands-down the best OS I have used, and I have tried a TON of them. If BeOS had continued development I am sure it would be par with OS X. They share the same goal: computing hassle-free and powerfully. "i heard is sucks big time" makes you sound uninformed. For a list of reasons why OS X has more to offer (and offers it better) visit xvsxp.com. I
p.s. I am not a mac-zealot. I regularly use Windows XP, 2000, OS X, and sometimes SuSe. I prefer OS X and SuSe. However, I am very enthused about haiku!
porting rpm to haiku?
Definatly. Drag n' Drop. Installing VLC is easy when its all in one place! Self-contained packages (like mac's .app folders) are easier to install/upgrade/remove and are less prone to breakage (you can't delete dependencies from another location)
porting rpm to haiku?
Wizards IMO are good ONLY if we're dealing with a large operation that needs some explanation. Otherwise if a task can be done faster with knowledge of something you already know about; i find it irritating to launch a whole wizard that just eats up freakin lotsa time. Time is not only precious; but timewaste is annoying
http://xvsxp.com/photos/
You can see a direct "wizard v/s non wizard" demo over there -- not only does the mac's style use less space; but it also gives stronger feedback...
About the linux installing files into directories of its choice -- im QUITE against it; i tried it in my windows pc once and it leads to more confusion than help. I dont want the system to do something that IT wants -- i want it to do what I WANT
Thus drag and drop > wizards. O' course in some cases wizards become mandatory; where we can use em.
Why not add dual functionality; where the file can be dragged and dropped; or the package's context menu will have "Install with Wizard" menu item?
porting rpm to haiku?
my kind of wizard is all settings crammed together in just one minimalist screen with an ok or cancel buttons. i think just intalling an app without any feedback is useless.
i do want the ability to intall files anywhere on the drive and still be package. if i could do that it means i can keep track of all files everywhere. and that would be a good package manager.
and i do prefer /bin to contain shell apps /boot/beos/apps to contain gui apps or /boot/beos/config to contain config files or /etc to contain other files, etc...
keeps things organised. i know where to get stuff from.
i think people should not go too far in building thnigs. unix is still the best os because is functional, not easy. things were never meant to be "braindead" easy.
porting rpm to haiku?
I dont get it. If things ARE braindead easy; why do you want em NOT to be? Its like saying that you will wait for half an hour lift thaz at 26th floor filled with passengers; when you live in the 1st floor...
Its not about just feedback; its about intuity as well. In that case you should love the "Are you sure you want to delete" dialog that you get everytime you send a file to recycle bin in windows -- see? Extra is annoying and not helpful.
You say "keep things orderly". I'll say "keep things where i want you to". Not to mention if the designer is way too lazy; we'll just have em all scattered haywire. Remember:
Too much Customisability is counter-usability
I'd say two folders -- one has system apps; the other has programs.
But even if kept as such; a good windows user would well know the irritation of apps that install into the C:\WINDOWS\ (or watever u named it). If you want it to be completely functional -- it should be as i said -- a li'l metadata attribute which describes the application's functionality such as "system" or "games" or crap.. and this metaata will be dealt by some saved searches; which IMO should be included cuz its cute. Case closed!
The kind of wizard you speak of; does nothing more than what the drag and drop does; save you get a "the task is complete" pop up and some more confusion and buttons.
I love some things about windows; i hate some things about mac.. but if you cant like the core behaviour just get used to it!
Okay here's a installer version of "package versus wizard":
CASE 1:[drag and drop]
1)Open the Destination folder
2)Drag the package into the Destination folder; watch the file copy
3)Launch it if you wanna else leave it there
max time taken : 10 secs in general.
CASE 2:[package manager]
1)Run the package
2)A wizard pops up; and you need to first read a bit
3)Select the target folder from the
4)Press next and wait for the setup to copy it
5)Select the options if you want to launch the application or no; and you're done
avg time taken : 7 secs
See? yes; even i agree that the feeling of running a wizard is good; but lets limit to mega applications and for the others -- if used for others it's just annoyance and waste of precious time.
porting rpm to haiku?
well, if things are "braindead" easy, your brain is dead. how about everyone living at 1st floor? you don't want somethign so simple taht is boring and you feel useless. unix (again) is more fun. and is funny too. damn i forgot their names, ritchie and something were very immaginative people.
I beg to diffrer that "extra is annoying". I think customisability is the best thing yet. Don't have a standard that all people follow (a la bill skates and his best friend steve pops. yes, they have the same ideal! you see, people hate people that are the same as them). what i do think though, is at this stage (R1) less is better. ie have something that works, not something useless that looks nice.
you remember this: don't try to make people conform after you standards, EVEN IF you are "righter" than mose people. but give enough freedom to make people do what they want. accept people's diffrences. unix (in this aspect) is more democratic than macos, beos or windows or freebsd (check it out, i did not include linux). the reason for this is people DON'T have to follow an ideal but be who they are. the more choices they have the more efficient they are. for example beos was never degines to be skinnable (big mistake). macos had the same problem. can you turn all those effects off? perhaps you can. but in a mac you waste about 1gb of ram to effects. nope. don't need them.
why not make people do what you think?? because, believe it or not, some people work better upside down. for example i take less time doing the long wizard way than by dragging and dropping. don't think if it makes sense in your head is true for everyone. is true for most people, or just for yourself. see what people want first. if you read most post, few peopel admit that they want files all around the place. but more want drag and drop to install. most want soemthing that keeps things together and it's clean. i don't think drag and drop is a big deal. the folders that beos has i like very much. it has a hardlink to bin and etc (posix compliant), then boot/beos and all stuff inside. cool! more to do. not borring!!!
let me add this thing too. sometimes what the majority says may be wrong. 90% of the people may be wrong. and some stupid guy come along and says stupid stuff and after an year or two people start believing he's right. it happens all the time. it's not what most people think, but what really works. and to find out you must listen to everyone, especially the little people, those that do things backwards, those that have a smaller voice. and please do not think i'm not refering to me.
actually i like case 2. and is 7 secs too :D
porting rpm to haiku?
Not really ââ¬â used a Mac lately? Effects are enabled/disabled based on the capability of your system and no ram is wasted.
Drag n' Drop is not without disorganization ââ¬â however, a disk images that contains a link to /apps or /Applications are common in os x dmg's. You can drag the whole program wherever you want or right into the link provided for you. This is equivalent to selecting the location you wish to install to. A bittorrent client, with little extra baggage would best be installed like this _ whereas, and installer is better for an OS upgrade, Apache, or a pro video app _ which relies on components that are integrated with other apps (codecs, compressors). Dragging and dropping gives the user as much flexibility if not more than an installer while simplifying it. A combination approach could also be possible, you drag the package where you want it to appear (so you may launch it) and it expands and distributes dependencies to their correct locations. For instance, if you want a game in /apps then put it there. When you first run it, it checks for the needed dependencies and launches, expands its archives if they are not there and then deletes the archive, or finally, if the required files had been deleted after the fact (a missing codec) it prompts you to insert your CD so that it may retrieve and redistribute the files.
Windows GUI is based on the assumption that every operation will fail and that every operation has to be complex. Installers say "You have successfully installed this software!!" ââ¬â if you have a CD and a computer why not assume the reverse. Computers shouldn't boast their success in the most minor of operations ââ¬â interrupt the user only when there is warrant. A big install of Apache has many more points that could go wrong than installing BitTorrent. The OS shouldn't pester people, it should give them intuitive choices and concise understandable feedback.
@fanton
Just because things are easy doesn't mean that your brain is dead. Also, thinking that *NIX is fun is your opinion, and that's OK. Usability is all about gearing your software toward your target audience. Non-geeks generally are people who don't want to have to learn more than they absolutely have to about technology, particularly computers. In their minds, computers are just tools to get work done. Just like programmers are lazy, so are users.
You and I are different. For us, computers are for both work and fun, but I honestly could not tell you the number of people that have told me that they either don't like or hate technology. An even greater number of people I've run into over the years "don't know much about computers" or are "computer illiterate." What amounts to freedom of choice for one person is another person's confusion. At the same time, it is possible to add features for advanced users which do not get in the way of the average ones.
If you like choices, great. More power to you. :) While I can't point to it offhand, there have been usability studies in the amount of time needed to make a decision given a number of choices. The more choices, the greater amount of time needed.
Just a little extra information to clear things up on both sides. :)
porting rpm to haiku?
i agree :D.
so it comes down to having "enough" choices. not too many but not too less either.
porting rpm to haiku?
If im not mistaken; all you want to say is -- haiku should be as close to unix as possible. Right? Even mac aint boring even though its p'haps the easiest OS with least customisability
So you say even unneccessary customisability should be available which a guy will never use?
You're generalising it beyond the topic i speak of. I'm a strict follower of open data formats
May i say; same applies to the installer part? As i said -- give em both options
As i said -- beyond the topic. Installers deal with end users; not developers. Too much liberty can be a hindrance. For example; if a user is to open a file; it will just be a double-click. Not a double click which will bring up a window which lets u choose between what colour pallete to choose between; etc etc and what program to open it with. One may argue these offer more flexibility -- but the question is -- are they worth it? Default should be the easiest no matter what. Thus i say; drag and drop; not installers. I know how an end user feels cuz i used my first pc in 1999; and installers took me lotsa time. If i was given a simple tutorial that i'm to drag; and drop; not only is it simple; but its intuitive.
BTW;; the concept of sending the apps to respective folders automatically -- thaz not customisability now; is it?
Read my first post -- it will be an alternative way to install; no big deal. If thaz the case im one of the few
Most of my friends say that installers are better for the same reasons. I say -- installers for complex things that require options while installing; drag and drop for simpler ones that are configurable anytime.
The level of customisability; should be similiar to firefox -- an end user would press "Tools>>Options" while a developer may type "about:config" and edit to his luxury.
But if you give an end user a wizard that demonstrates all the same features as of about:config; he will skip 9/10 of the steps. If you say a control panel crammed with all features; again its confusing to same extent.
If you see half the people they use the customisability of WinAmp to such an extent that the windows are spherical with oddly placed buttons; and most likely end up scrapping it by next week. In the process; the program sacrifices memory; space and stability and even usability in some cases.
Keep the features to teh extent he wants em; in other words -- default drag and drop; installer for mega apps which need preset customisation to install the app. All in all its pretty much my own point :P
I guess i stink at putting my point -- cuz its exactly what i've been sayin till now T.T So take back your line that says "extra is not annoying" :D
porting rpm to haiku?
In other respects, yes, but not here! Far more customisable than Windows, and at least as customisable as Linux.
I can install apps anywhere I like, move them without caring about hard-coded paths, or customise them by opening up the bundle.
Any apps that need configuration come with installers anyway. Unix-derived apps like server stuff work just like they do on Linux.
The only restrictions are on what developers choose to let you customise, which is a matter for the developer, not the OS...
porting rpm to haiku?
actually most operating systems try to be poxis compliant. which makes them look more like unix. i think beos is more like unix than windows for example. and being more like unix is a wise thing to do.
If it's unecessary I don't think people would implement it. But the thing is one person can't decide which features to implement. You can't nor can I. Together we decide.
Extra may be annoying for you. But will mean the a big deal to other people which use those feature you don't use.
porting rpm to haiku?
Can't you just write a Model/Backend of an installer application, and write two GUIs for it?
And a Model/Backend isn't a console application from which everything else can run, it's best to be an object-oriented piece of code that does the work of the installer.
Pack the easy-to-use GUI with Haiku, and allow the More advanced one as an option...
^ If you are advanced enough to use an "advanded installer", you are advanced enough to install an advanced installer ^
porting rpm to haiku?
I stick to this main thing : the numbers of options given to a user should be less; but customisability is mandatory; it should be presented in such a manner it consumes least time to operate.
@clebin: windows isnt exactly customisable... its...weird @_@ at some cases it seems more customisable than a mac; but the significance isnt a lot in most of these cases.
I take mac as an example cuz i feel its p'haps the only consumer-oriented GUI in the market.
@fanton: What i say is;; give these features in such a manner its inaccessible by those who dont need it. Such as the about:config in firefox. Normal user gets access to basic features of the browser; but the power users get access to deeper customisability. If these features were installed in the tools>options dialog; it would be "extra and annoying" to the majority. Most would use only two or three of em in all; maybe each will use different ones. But overall - the rest of the interface is useless and hinders his work; even if it means a big deal to others ^^
In a similiar way; i say packages should have a option in the context menu labelled "Install" other than the default "Open"
porting rpm to haiku?
apt-get/dpkg is much better than yum/rpm;D i tried it...
General users not *nix users
They manage dependencies too right? Haiku is a user-os. When someone gets an app it SHOULD have everything one need's with it. The goal is not to make haiku a GNU/Linux os with a cool Window manager. The goal is to make a user centric os that is easy. People can install a port of another package manager if they want, but something simple and easy like installer.app or drag'n'drop is better for MOST people. (The majority of users 1. don't use unix and 2. want their software to just work and come with everything ââ¬â they don'twant to worry about dependencies.
Re: General users not *nix users
Exactly! I don't want to care about computers. Not anymore. They should just help me do my work more efficiently. I'm not interested in geeking/playing around with them. Haiku is my chance to get things right. That's why I'm here. Buy a gaming console (or games for Haiku ;) ) if you want "fun" (not that Haiku won't be fun, but it will be different).
KISS
Keep it simple s...
The all in one copy that Mac Os X has is great. It does have one thing over BeOS the click on a app folder to run it. Maybe we should make it so that a folder.app once clicked on will excute a file inside that folder defined in the mime of that folder.
Simple yet elegant, then let ppl copy the folder over. An installer would still work with something like this, but this would make the all in one idea that is so great on OsX be present in our favorite os.
Re: KISS
Thats all all .app in mac are too. Special Folders containing a contents list, executable, dependencies, and resources ââ¬â when you click they execute a specified file in the folder.
Re: KISS
Sounds like a .jar file...
Re: KISS
No, an exeutable binary with associated rescources. You can open it as a folder if you like. And it doesn't depend on a vm
Re: KISS
In windows - double-clicking a .jar file (as long as you have Java installed and set up properly) acts like an executable. the JVM opens the jar, looks for the meta-data which tells it which class to launch. All supporting "resources" can be contained within the jar so that it behaves as a single file that can be opened like a zip file...
porting rpm to haiku?
This not just a gui os, it also has a shell. So you should think about textmode applications as well, how would you run or instal those? How would you change configuration files inside a package from the shell? And Its nicer to have a unified manager of installaed programs both for text, guis or even kernel patches, servers, etc.
In windows zip files are can be opened like normal folders. But i think theres some drawback to accessing files in a package for example may be slower or makes it harder to edit files inside.
Its nice to have a package before instalation, but not after. A directory like windows has is a good idea.
What happens if the program wants to create temporary files? What happens with the files used by games for saving. I think macosx can anser that. I never used macs but I know they have games and somehow they solved problems like these.
A unix base requires more files in the diffrent directories, its part of the posix standard so you can;t really fully have a package for each application. You need several filesi in several places.
A server like apache (also httpd) requires multiple directories. One of the directories is /var/http or httproot which is NOT part of the apache package but its part of the service it provides. Which means removing apache would not remove /var/http but ask you if you want to remove shared files. Or maybe remove shared resources by default.
Also having dependencies inside a package is not the best way. What happens if two programs use the same library for example. Why would you store it twice?
Don't use the java mentality: user is stupid (so hide everything from him) and we have computing power (or we have enough space). Everyone has an os that works (windows). The beauty of a unix system (when done right) is that its very very transparent and everything works, evrything is configurable. That's why windows has several version ce, embedded, etc etc while linux is only one version (linux), because it can be stripped off blabla. What haiku has is a good gui (very good gui) and undearneath the cleanness/efficiency of a unix/linux system (at least as it used to be). Leave it to that. Don't make it more complitated, make small things that do one thing, do it right, and then put all pieces together. Even smarter is to build things in textmoed only first, then build a gui frontend. That way you can carry the program logic to any other program or have the program logic part of the kits/servers and create textmode interfaces to them. its exactly like linux is. If you strip off GUI off linux youll get a super extra mega efficient system (alast no gui).
haiku will probably never be a server. but will be a very good workstation. linux is the server, haiku the workstation. but a worktation means for programmers, artists, musicians, general users (for now this is enough).
But ... I'm off topic.
A folder per app is good enough. At least i came to think so now. someone showed me a package manager stall. Use that package manager for now. and add to it something like tar.gz functionality. And that's good enough. Start first with what you already have on BeBits, use that frist, then build or port what you don't have. This is what I think..
porting rpm to haiku?
Textmode applications (very uncommon and undesirable to casual users) would not be stored in the applications folder. They would be in /Haiku/Applications/ or wherever and could be called from the console. Changing configuration files inside the package would be easy
pico /Applications/Quest.app/GlobalOptions/preferences.startingpoint.sheet. User preferences (Haiku should/will eventually be a multi-user os right?) would be stored in ~/Treasury/Preferences/quest.preferences.sheet. The package is not compressed, it IS a folder. The operating system takes the folder with the ending .app and instead of defaulting to open it, it looks for a list of files inside the folder, and which one to execute. It executes a binary in the folder. At any time, you can choose to open the folder (in osx you right-click and click show contents). Temporary files aren't stored in an application they are stored separately in /tmp/Quest.app/. Mac OS X does this ââ¬â it tweaks traditional computing so that it seems more integrated but in reality is working just as a *nix always would. You don't need to have a program's files scattered all over the place ââ¬â this isn't windows. They just need to be accessible. OS X uses symbolic links to redirect unix textmode applications to folders where OS X wants to keep them.Httpd is not a user application ââ¬â it is a poweruser/expert application. It is stored in /private/etc/httpd in os x. Unix directories are hidden from casual users. If you delete httpd and the httpd folder in os x you dleete everything. It is the same but more centralized. Services and common dependencies are stored in a central location (in mac it is in /Library/whatever) a custom designed element is sotred in the package. Application creators assume that a user has a base installation of a certain version and includes anything not already there. One game I have includes a duplicate of the OpenAL framework ââ¬â some versions of the OS did not have the necessary framework to support it while some did ââ¬â so they included it. Neither OS X or Haiku claims to be unix. It operates on a unix base. Efficiency for the user is a sectionalized approach ââ¬â they don't want ot memorize ANYTHING in the terminal or ANY odd locations. I am not proposing to make it more complicated ââ¬â I propose to make it less complicated. If you strip of OS X from Darwin you get a customized version of unix. But, you don;t have OS X ââ¬â its not easy to use anymore, its not user friendly. If you want a *nix distro that looks like BeOS then design a window manager. If you want an original, user friendly, powerful, and streamlined OS, make sure that Haiku departs from its *nix underpinnings as OS X did. What you describe is not Haiku (at least not my vision of it) it is *nix plain and simple.
In conclusion ââ¬â a .app is a folder. It is a folder with an illusion. That is not good enough ââ¬â it is great. Start with what we have as a reality .. not a goal.
porting rpm to haiku?
It seems like you haven't listened to a word anyone has said and you still have no idea about what OS X packages are or how they work.
I've said countless times that it is a FOLDER (edit: perhaps you don't like the Mac-speak - it is a DIRECTORY)
You can cd into it from the command line and do whatever you want. Edit config files, whatever.
You can install by typing "cp /Volumes/diskimage/Lovely.app /Applications" or with any program that has an installer with it, by typing "installer LovelyInstaller <parameters>"
How many times?? :roll:
Chris
porting rpm to haiku?
Exactly. They are just glorified folders :D. Maybe I wasn't clear enough (sometimes I get to into what I am writing I guess). You said it a bit more succinct :D
porting rpm to haiku?
This is the line that makes me what to bang my head against the wall:
"Its nice to have a package before instalation, but not after. A directory like windows has is a good idea."
Ok then! - 'd' for directory:
drwxrwxr-x 3 root admin 102 19 Feb 21:28 iTunes.app
porting rpm to haiku?
just leave them as normal folders then;D (that .app scares me)
lets say ny folder in /beos/applications is a special folder.... (or soemthing in that order of ideas)
you ppl are making sounds so hi-tech ;DDDDDDD
hey it could have been
lrw-r----- too you know ;D
porting rpm to haiku?
That defeats the purpose. The whole idea is a more streamlined and user-friendly system. It isn't complicated at all. It is very natural (you may just have to try it). Its not high tech ââ¬â its a folder. A "magic folder" if you will. It executes the binary inside it without forcing users to see those icky related files.
porting rpm to haiku?
In the grand scheme of things, it just sounds like a tracker add-on...
porting rpm to haiku?
Well, a change, not a tacked on attempt/extra and a development philosophy, that developers cannot assume someone will pull together dependencies and scrape up what is nessecary for a program to run ââ¬â they have to package, deliver and complete thier programs into a .app so that user will enjoy their app seamlessly. While it may be a tiny bit more work at first, it leads to a better experience and a better user respoonse. Simplicity for the end-user is paramount. It also involves developing the structure of the .apps and examing the examples of os x would be a place to start. OS X has ann advantage of an IDE built to do it, so an "addon" for the haiku ide of choice would also be in order.
porting rpm to haiku?
Pardon me, but techincally speaking... What the user expectences with an install tends to be rather varyed. As far as I see it, what is under a installer/wizard and so on is an important thing here, where fanton has some merit.
As much as the front end is important, what is under it is the main issue. You want developers to tinker with Haiku, you going to need a framework on how installers work under Haiku. As far as I have seen it, the frame work is about as ad-hoc as Windows, which makes me quiver. And as far as I have heard, there is not much to say against that.
Through as far as I see it, rpm is not the way to do for such endeavors. It much larger than it lets on, and porting it would become a mountant of work. On top of the fact that rpm may change again, tracking that development at this point it time is not the best thing to do.
Through if you ask me, it would be interesting to see if something like autopackage could be used.
Edit: Darn my grammer.
porting rpm to haiku?
autopackage looks nice!!!!
porting rpm to haiku?
The difference between an installed application and app in a .app is the installation. Some programs don't need to be installed (programs that are not like photoshop or avid that involve a generally large amount of computer integration now ââ¬â the necessity of that is debatable but . . ) they just need to be obtained. Put in a CD, drag a single file anywhere you want to on the system ââ¬â it is now there. Others, you must install. I guess I am talking the structure of applications ââ¬â keeping files together in a simplified and streamlined way. Some programs may need to put a file somewhere else on the system (in a non-user area) but this should be minimized. This is I suppose part of the package manager discussion but also not a part of it. It is part of it in that it establishes what should be in the packages for distribution and if a program even needs a packaged install. On the other hand it is a discussion of the user accessible end-product.
I guess this is a multi-tthreaded discussion thread!
ââ¬â Some things might need an install just so that a package receipt could be written. Programs that communicate with other programs use this package receipt as a way of knowing what/where is on the system and what/where it can relay info with. Useful for updating software ("delta" updates for big software ââ¬â so you don't have to download a whole new app) too ââ¬â as it knows what version you previously had and where everything is.
Re: porting rpm to haiku?
Excuse me but Is it not more sensible to use the Be Inc installer file format and add into it with a new format, i have noticed that currently Haiku does not seem to be able to deal with old R5 .pkg files, why in hell not, also certain programs do not work complaining that _kernel is required, is Haiku's small footprint coming at a cost?
There are 10 choices in this world to Be™ or not to Be™
Re: porting rpm to haiku?
Haiku doesn't support .pkg formats *yet* because the format was closed, proprietary.
One of the GSoC students is working on an installer for that format after several have put effort into reverse-engineering it.
Any app from R5 that complains about a missing symbol is either using an undocumented call, or Haiku's binary compatibility is broken. You should post all of those experiences to Trac: http://dev.haiku-os.org
If the APIs used are undocumented private calls from R5, there is a slim chance it will be supported in Haiku as this is not the intention of the binary compatibility.
Why does this have anything to do with Haiku's "small footprint"?