VM(s) on Haiku?
ok, there are (maybe) Haiku on Virtualbox or VMWare or Qemu or...
BUT
I think that should be very interesting run Virtual Machines ON Haiku...
VirtualBox is open source, it is possible port on Haiku?
I like run Windows, GNU\Linux, xBSD, xSolaris in VMs with their applications... think LAMP stack on Haiku!
what do you think?
Comments
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
There is already a qemu port for haiku: http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/emulators/computer-systems/qemu
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Yes but qemu is a command line only application, so not right for Haiku; it's a lot complex to use!
It will be better to have VirtualBox on Haiku... I think there was a GSOC to port VB but it seems i=m mistaken...
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
There is a GUI component but it might need some updates:
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I used Qemu sometime ago trying to get it to work, it is very slow and is very resource heavy, its not a virtualization it is true emulation. This means it comes with a very significant overhead. Its runs like crap and the GUI doesn;t work right, it is also very difficult to configure properly.
Best thing to do is hope virtualbox port happens.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Qemu offers virtualisation when run in conjunction with Xen (a standalone hypervisor) or with KVM (OS based virtual machine) both of which are most commonly used with Linux of course.
Haiku doesn't provide KVM and doesn't support being used as the domain 0 operating system of Xen. In fact we can go further: Haiku's kernel doesn't provide any virtualisation services at all.
Haiku doesn't run in Long Mode on modern CPUs, and most virtualisation software does not support running a Long Mode guest on a i386 mode host, so this would be very limiting anyway (no 64-bit guests)
The GSOC project is to improve usability aspects of Haiku running as a VirtualBox guest. This is a more practical scenario than running Haiku as a host OS.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Haiku doesn't run in Long Mode on modern CPUs, and most virtualisation software does not support running a Long Mode guest on a i386 mode host, so this would be very limiting anyway (no 64-bit guests)
Yet VirtualBox supports 64-bit guest on 32-bit host OS but only with hardware virtualization. The poster asked about VirtualBox so I point this out.
http://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch03.html#intro-64bitguests
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Qemu is slow to use and not worth using.
VMWare is closed source so you will not see that on Haiku.
Haiku could get VirtualBox (Open Source edition) but only with software virtualization for now. VirtualBox (soft mode) should still be faster than Qemu but slower than running VB with hardware virtualization.
Some quick testing of software vs hardware virtualization I did in VB with 7zip showed:
a) 7zip benchmark (7za b): encoding speed is 2X faster with hardware mode
b) creating 7zip archive of system/lib & sub-folders gave similar result to a) above:
VB in software mode
total time: 2m9s
VB in hardware mode
total time: 1m11s
*VB running on Windows 7 64-bit host
Hardware virtualization makes a big difference by giving 2X the CPU power to the guest OS!!! You can also notice this difference in booting which is much faster too.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
QEMU is FAST... boot up any Linux distro install QEMU and make sure it has KVM support and watch your virtualized OSes run at near native speed. For instance on my laptop without KVM haiku does a mere 20 or so FPS on GLTeapot.. with KVM enabled it shoots up to around 270-300 FPS which is only slightly below native speed. And as far as desktop applications I can't tell the difference between QEMU with KVM and native.
VirtualBox's main advantage is in the GUI and convenience of use not speed QEMU is even gaining USB2 support so it is still a highly valid target.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
@cb88
Ok, KVM is for hardware virtualization on Linux and maybe on BSD too with their port. So, when using KVM with Qemu then it should run fast like VirtualBox but currently Haiku does not support KVM and likely will not for R1.
Qemu on Windows 7 also does not support KVM and stuck with 0.11.1. Windows 7 is the OS I mostly run now.
Also, Qemu emulates the CPU type. That slows things down. Not sure if this happens with newer versions since I have not tried Qemu past 0.11.1. That is why Qemu is called an emulator. VirtualBox passes my actual CPU type to the guest OS - no CPU emulation.
Qemu is only fast on Linux using KVM otherwise it is slow for the rest of us because we are stuck with 0.11.1 version that uses kqemu acceleration!
KVM seems to be only on Linux (and maybe BSD). So, that is the only OS that can run Qemu fast.
http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_Page
VirtualBox is available on Windows, OS X, Linux and Solaris and should support hardware V on all of these OSes. Since I will run Windows 7, Haiku and maybe Linux, then it makes sense to stick with VB.
Also, when doing the 7zip test Qemu+kqemu took over 13 minutes. I stopped it because I could not take waiting for it to finish. Ran really, really slow!
Consider that any hardware virtualization on Haiku (like KVM) would not appear until R2. Since Qemu+kqemu is super slow and Virtualbox with software virtualization runs much faster than Qemu with software V then which is better for Haiku? =)
With hardware accel they maybe equal but only if Qemu stopped emulating the CPU. I cannot say without testing it out myself. But with software accel, VB beats Qemu hands down!!! No contest!!! Haiku would get software V for R1 & hardware V for R2 with any virtual machine software.
PS Michael Lotz, Haiku dev, worked on Qemu port and was able to get it to 0.11.1 but nothing newer than that because of KVM. With VirtualBox, should be able to port the latest version and just use software V mode until Haiku supports hardware V.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Qemu on Windows 7 also does not support KVM and stuck with 0.11.1. Windows 7 is the OS I mostly run now.
On Windows 7 you can run Microsoft's Windows Virtual PC.
Also, Qemu emulates the CPU type. That slows things down. Not sure if this happens with newer versions since I have not tried Qemu past 0.11.1. That is why Qemu is called an emulator. VirtualBox passes my actual CPU type to the guest OS - no CPU emulation.
Even hardware virtualisers emulate a different CPU from the host CPU. For example they remove the hardware virtualisation feature from the CPU flags on the emulated CPU to avoid a Russian Doll scenario. Also emulating a specific CPU is important for live migration (or even offline migration if you don't like nasty surprises) because the software inside the guest isn't expecting the CPU to change. On its own this makes no performance difference, programs don't spend a significant portion of their time executing instructions like CPUID.
Qemu is only fast on Linux using KVM otherwise it is slow for the rest of us because we are stuck with 0.11.1 version that uses kqemu acceleration!
Actually the kqemu acceleration would give you somewhat similar performance to the VirtualBox software virtualisation mode. kqemu and VirtualBox work roughly the same way - a kernel driver hijacks the host system, enabling ring 3 software on the guest to run in ring 3 on the host.
It's possible you haven't actually installed kqemu, that you've installed it but it doesn't work (or no longer works on newer Haiku builds), or that you simply didn't enable kqemu in your qemu session.
You mention version QEMU 0.11.1 several times, but I don't see much sign that it's actually available for Haiku. The Bebits link, for example, is to a BeOS version which claims to be 0.9.1 from years previous.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I use VirtualBox on Windows 7. I also once in awhile run Qemu port on Windows 7 for testing.
It could be that kqemu driver is not working properly on Windows even though Qemu Manager says installed and enabled. Since Qemu is really for Linux (not Windows) then testing it on Linux is best. At least then I would not be using a Qemu port and could tell if kqemu was really on or off. May hook up my Linux box to check this out better and get accurate results.
Correct, the binary version of Qemu for Haiku is currently 0.9 but up to version 0.11.1 can be ported to Haiku.
http://www.freelists.org/post/haiku-development/Adding-some-new-Optional...
0.12.0 removed kqemu going for KVM instead. So the last version of Qemu ports other OSes will use is 0.11.1 to benefit from kqemu until they get KVM support.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Qemu offers virtualisation when run in conjunction with Xen (a standalone hypervisor) or with KVM (OS based virtual machine) both of which are most commonly used with Linux of course.
Haiku doesn't run in Long Mode on modern CPUs, and most virtualisation software does not support running a Long Mode guest on a i386 mode host, so this would be very limiting anyway (no 64-bit guests)
The GSOC project is to improve usability aspects of Haiku running as a VirtualBox guest. This is a more practical scenario than running Haiku as a host OS.
I really wish I cared, but I don't. to me its just not a big deal. Screw emulating, that for servers and linux users who can't run windows apps.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I really wish I cared, but I don't. to me its just not a big deal. Screw emulating, that for servers and linux users who can't run windows apps.
Yes, you might not but others may. They will want to run another OS in a virtual machine. I only do this myself for testing out OSes and believe it much better to install the OS to the drive and dual, triple or quad boot the computer.
Haiku cannot run Windows (or X based Linux) applications either last time I checked. =)
Which some people may find important using and may prefer running them through a virutal machine instead of rebooting their computer. ie, to some maybe very important and to others not so much. For me, it is of little importance. Better to get the right apps onto Haiku instead to avoid using VMs.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Ok I did some testing on a Linux system and below are the results.
The interesting part is the 7zip bench shows Qemu w/kqemu difference of 10-20% compared to VB but when 7zipping (compressing) system/lib folder VB does it in half the time. User CPU time really killed Qemu!!!
Without kqemu, Qemu is 6.5X slower compressing and 11.5X slower decompressing 7zips. Runs real terrible and should never use this mode.
Extra info:
Atom330 system w/2GB RAM, Debian Lenny OS, Alpha2 ISO, 0.9.1 Qemu, 3.2.12 VB, 500MB given to VM
*Issue with A3 RC which I have to report.
*Could not find 0.11.1 Qemu deb binary so stuck with 0.9.1 - default one in Lenny.
*Qemu defaults to kqemu user mode accel. I tried enabling full kqemu virtualization but crashes. Full kqemu V is anyways only meant to work with couple of OSes from their docs.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I really wish I cared, but I don't. to me its just not a big deal. Screw emulating, that for servers and linux users who can't run windows apps.
Yes, you might not but others may. They will want to run another OS in a virtual machine. I only do this myself for testing out OSes and believe it much better to install the OS to the drive and dual, triple or quad boot the computer.
Haiku cannot run Windows (or X based Linux) applications either last time I checked. =)
Which some people may find important using and may prefer running them through a virutal machine instead of rebooting their computer. ie, to some maybe very important and to others not so much. For me, it is of little importance. Better to get the right apps onto Haiku instead to avoid using VMs.
better to just put it on a 8-10gb thumb drive, they are cheap these days and the performance benefits of running on real hardware exceed the benefits of virtualization. Now obviously for dynamic enviroments like large data centers and the need to virtualize OS's to handle the various demands they have, sure it makes sense for them to be heavy into virtualization, even for OS development is makes sense. In fact any scenario where regular reboots are need virtualization makes alot of sense to development purposes.
But for the average PC, user ?? Its a edge case useage, I would welcome virtualbox with openarms, but its not a nessecity right now in anyway I cn see.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
The interesting part is the 7zip bench shows Qemu w/kqemu difference of 10-20% compared to VB but when 7zipping (compressing) system/lib folder VB does it in half the time. User CPU time really killed Qemu!!!
Well, not exactly. The difference between the benchmark and compressing real files is that the benchmark doesn't require any system calls or I/O, almost every cycle is spent in userspace. But when 7zip needs to read a file, it makes system calls to the OS, going into ring 0 on the guest and running filesystem code, disk I/O etc.
VirtualBox is able to handle some of this by running the code directly on your CPU. The bulk of the guest OS filesystem code (which thinks it is running in ring 0) can be faked out in ring 1 of the host OS. The system call itself, which is a trap into ring 0, and the I/O code, have to be painstakingly emulated.
Qemu's kqemu in "user mode" doesn't do the ring 1 trick, from the moment the system call happens until control is returned to the 7zip userspace code, it's emulating everything which is noticeably slower for programs which do a lot of system calls. But this strategy is much less prone to subtle mistakes.
You should also beware that the guest OS clocks are virtual too. So "wallclock" or "real" time inside the VM is not necessarily real to you. Obviously if something feels very slow, it probably is, but you may not want to entirely trust benchmark results inside a VM.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Tones,
Any chance you could put together a simple guide - A Beginners guide to using Qemu on Haiku? It is some thing that keeps coming up. I haven't had the patience to learn what to install from were, which switches are relevant, etc. Could be very useful documentation.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I talk about run other OSs on Haiku: it's very rare hardwares that run 4 or 5 different kernels without problems... Haiku is fast than light and could be the kickass VMs dispatcher... :D
So hardware compatible with Haiku and also can play other OSs!
I like win-win situations!
Is it possible? wich software? how install it?
thx
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I talk about run other OSs on Haiku: it's very rare hardwares that run 4 or 5 different kernels without problems... Haiku is fast than light and could be the kickass VMs dispatcher... :D
So hardware compatible with Haiku and also can play other OSs!
I like win-win situations!
Is it possible? wich software? how install it?
thx
WTF is the point of running 4-5 other Operating systems in VM's ? Unless your a data center server and you have some need to do so, and they often do, How in the world could you ever need to do this on a desktop OS ? You do realize the overhead your talking about here. Just becuase haiku is light and fast doesn't mean it would make a good vm host.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I talk about run other OSs on Haiku:
Is it possible? wich software? how install it?
thx
Qemu has been around for Haiku for awhile now. It allows running other OSes on Haiku but:
1) Qemu port may not work with newer Haiku versions. You might be able to get it working by following my advice here:
http://haikuware.com/remository/view-details/emulators/computer-systems/...
Qemu port for Haiku can be found here:
http://www.bebits.com/app/4208
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/emulators/computer-systems/qemu
To install: download, unzip and run qemu from terminal like you would in Linux.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
@thatguy, you missed the point. He wants to be able to run different OSes in VMs one at a time. It is for people who only want to check out and play with other OSes without installing them.
When he says good VM host he is talking about:
[1] Very good host OS for VM because light, fast and responsive. ie, in VM you have host & guest OS.
[2] Better VM performance on Haiku than other OSes running the same VM software but performance is likely close and only benching would show for sure of any real difference (ie, Qemu 0.9.x on Linux versus on Haiku) and
[3] Running single OS in VM at any one time which really is implied and the normal use at the user level. Just like how people use VMs on other OSes. You are fixated on the idea that he wants to run multiple VMs at once which is completely wrong. I have about 3 VMs with different OSes but I run only 1 VM at one time and very rarely 2 at once. That is how almost all users work with VMs!
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
@thatguy, you missed the point. He wants to be able to run different OSes in VMs one at a time. It is for people who only want to check out and play with other OSes without installing them.
When he says good VM host he is talking about:
[1] Very good host OS for VM because light, fast and responsive. ie, in VM you have host & guest OS.
[2] Better VM performance on Haiku than other OSes running the same VM software but performance is likely close and only benching would show for sure of any real difference (ie, Qemu 0.9.x on Linux versus on Haiku) and
[3] Running single OS in VM at any one time which really is implied and the normal use at the user level. Just like how people use VMs on other OSes. You are fixated on the idea that he wants to run multiple VMs at once which is completely wrong. I have about 3 VMs with different OSes but I run only 1 VM at one time and very rarely 2 at once. That is how almost all users work with VMs!
1. Linux kernel has better performance clock for clock cpu for cpu in throughput then Haiku does, currently. could that change in the future ? Its not much slower, but the interupts that make the OS snappy, degrade performance a wee bit. Its a few % points towards linux, nothing drastic though.
2. See reply #1. Just becuase it does some things faster, doesn't mean that there isn't a penalty somewhere else.
3. I am aware of how people use VM's. thumbdrives are cheap.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
1. Its a few % points towards linux, nothing drastic though.
Yes, I believe performance of same Qemu version on Linux or Haiku would be fairly close. Only benching would show if true or not.
3. I am aware of how people use VM's. thumb drives are cheap.
Drive install is not always an option. I have x86 Android OS. Tried to boot and would not even with the VESA driver. Also, others download OSes (like Haiku) and it will not boot for them or crashes. Others download OSes they try out couple of times and then delete them. I have downloaded Haiku images and sometimes not worth installing to thumb drive if I will install newer version in couple of days. Sometimes I just want to check something out real quick in Haiku but prefer not rebooting, ie, I give help on forums and being able to check in Haiku helps which can quickly be done through VirtualBox without rebooting, etc.
Also, with hardware V, Haiku (and other OSes) run pretty good in virtual machines.
Also, you could do what you say with just 1 thumb drive with good size like 8GB. Partition it, install OSes, install boot manager (like Grub) and create a multi-OS thumb drive. =)
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
The linux kernel is not the problem, X server is the problem.
It's very very, very, big and slow.
Thanks to all: I installed and run successfully OpenBSD on QEmu on Haiku (on Acer Aspire One).
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
http://www.osnews.com/comments/25665
Oracle working on Haiku port of VirtualBox?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
No that is integrating the GSoC stuff.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Hi
What is progres about hardware virtualization on Haiku?
I know about Virtio drivers to Qemu, but it still do not working...
Is anybody work about this?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
It's been literally years since I played around with this, but if it still works, you should be able to run 32-bit OSs, if very slowly:
http://haikuware.com/directory/view-details/emulators/computer-systems/h...
16-bit Windows you might be able to shoehorn onto DOSBox. But if you want to run today's 64-bit OSs on Haiku, I guess you're out of luck.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
http://i.imgur.com/P9tbNbW.png
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Это здорово! Есть ли у вас инструкции по установке?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Это здорово! Есть ли у вас инструкции по установке?
haiku-os@conference.jabber.ru
diGer
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
http://myfreenet.ru/index.php?id=2
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Nice instructions! QEMU would run Windows 7 with correct license, yes?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Is there a download for latest QEMU?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I don't use Haiku package manager and build all packages with pkgsrc. In previous post I publishing link to mini-faq with link to pkgsrc and latest packages of qemu. Sorry for bad english.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Got it.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
sorry guys but what about the performance of win XP, is Qemu it is worth a try?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Diger, how did you get required libs such as libglib-2? Did you build from haikuporter?
In theory qemu should also run Windows 7. Windows 8 will not run until NX CPU feature is added.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I used HaikuDepot to download and install qemu. When I run:
qemu-img create -f raw c.img 1500I get a crash. So I created Win7 ISO using qemu Windows. When I runqemu-system-i386 -boot c -m 512 -vga std -boot -hda c.img -cdrom Win7img.iso(32-bit) I also get a crash. Haiku version is hrev47851 GCC4.Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Works fine here. The version is from HaikuiDepot.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
I can launch an OS in qemu running on Haiku without trouble.
But, the "-s" switch, which is supposed to enable connection from gdb, gives me an odd looking netstat output:
enetstat -netstat
~>
Subsequently, the gdb connection attempt fails. Why is the standard port number missing
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
My problem was caused by running qemu on an older AMD processor. This version of qemu needs certain CPU instructions to run. I have it running on a newer Intel box now.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
My problem was caused by running qemu on an older AMD processor. This version of qemu needs certain CPU instructions to run. I have it running on a newer Intel box now.
Well, I am running an older AMD processor :-)
Anyway, I made a little (well, really not) progress. Instead of using the "-s" shorthand for enabling the qemu/gdb server stub, I used the long hand option:
qemu-system-i386-x86 -hda ./visopsys1.img -cdrom ./visopsys-2014-12-02.iso -serial stdio -S -boot d -gdb tcp:127.0.0.1:1234That's supposedly the same thing, but apparently not. Anyway, doing it that way gave a much better looking netstat:
Then, attempting to connect from gdb:
But, the netstat command shows the connection:
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Who is the maintainer for the qemu port on Haiku OS?
I installed qemu from the HaikuDepot app, but didn't see porter info.
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
All things considered, the Qemu port on Haiku does pretty well I guess. I'm able to use Qemu on Haiku to launch the Visopsys OS with no trouble. It's only the debugger connection that's the hangup. Is the Haiku debugger too integrated and Haiku-centric to be able to do this kind of thing (eventually)?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
Re: VM(s) on Haiku?
The bundled gdb is a very old version, which was patched to work for native debugging. For other purposes it is a good idea to get a newer version of GDB built (without native apps support, then). I'm not sure what the state of the haikuports recipe for an up to date GDB is (but I know some work was done towards this).
PulkoMandy: Thanx for the info. Yeah, some of the old gdb versions didn't work that well with Qemu. So, that's probably the real problem, rather than Qemu. Qemu is maybe a bit slower on Haiku than on some of the other platforms, but I'm testing some pretty light operating systems. Speedwise, they do OK on the Haiku Qemu setup. I use Haiku fairly frequently for things like surfing, but didn't think to use it for a VM. Now I know I can! It gets better every day.