What about sound design?
Hi there. A word to developers. I'm really interested, if there are any sound themes for Haiku? If you have any plans to have them, could you please post a list of sound alerts you'll need, i would love to contribute some new original sounds. I mean pro quality in the studio.
Comments
Re: What about sound design?
Hi, I think the developers are only going to have one sound scheme/theme, much like there is only one GUI theme, but I can't speak for them. You could try http://www.freelists.org/list/haiku-development for a faster reply from the devs, as they are not very active on the forums.
You could try working on the main sound scheme though as it seems it hasn't been started on.
The buggy(gui-wise) sound preference app already shows some sounds events that are lacking sounds :
Window Restored
Beep
Start up
Key down
Key repeat
Key up
Window activated
Window Close
Window minimised
window open
window zoomed
USB device mount
USB device unmount
Re: What about sound design?
Hi, I think the developers are only going to have one sound scheme/theme, much like there is only one GUI theme, but I can't speak for them. You could try http://www.freelists.org/list/haiku-development for a faster reply from the devs, as they are not very active on the forums.
This is pretty much correct. There will probably only be one sound theme, certainly in the beginning. And the mailing list is definitely the best way to contact we Haiku developers ;)
You could try working on the main sound scheme though as it seems it hasn't been started on.
The buggy(gui-wise) sound preference app already shows some sounds events that are lacking sounds :
Window Restored
Beep
Start up
Key down
Key repeat
Key up
Window activated
Window Close
Window minimised
window open
window zoomed
USB device mount
USB device unmount
I don't think we need sounds for ALL of those in the beginning. I think a good start up sound, beep and the USB mount/unmount would be a great start. For the start up sound I was thinking something involving Shakuhachi (a Japanese flute) or similar Japanese instruments or sounds would be good. The beep should not be too unpleasant, but at the same time the user should definitely know what it means.
I think creating some sounds for Haiku would be a very nice contribution and would be very much appreciated.
Re: What about sound design?
Please use the haiku-development for such as question. :-)
Re: What about sound design?
I don't think we need sounds for ALL of those in the beginning. I think a good start up sound, beep and the USB mount/unmount would be a great start. For the start up sound I was thinking something involving Shakuhachi (a Japanese flute) or similar Japanese instruments or sounds would be good. The beep should not be too unpleasant, but at the same time the user should definitely know what it means.
I think, for the system/warning beep, a short "trill" sound would be appropriate. It's not unpleasant, but it does get the user's attention. An example:
http://www.kf4ytr.com/projects/trill.ogg
I created that sound in just a few seconds in Audacity. If you wish, you can use it in whatever way you care to. I've uploaded a .zip file with the original Audacity project file as well as a .wav and .ogg at:
http://www.kf4ytr.com/projects/trill.zip
It's public domain so feel free to use it however you care to.
Re: What about sound design?
I don't understand, shouldn't we redirect such queries to the general ml instead? (openbeos@freelists.org)
There's no hard rule, i know, but it seems more logical to me!
Now concerning your question:
AFAIK, noone started to work on the sound theme. I'd say, just start by making a few sounds (3 or 4) and post a link to a zip here or in the ML.
Thanks for the proposition!
regards,
alex
Re: What about sound design?
This is off-topic. :)
I know it's not possible, because HQ audio can't be there while booting up... But I recently revisited the TV series Lost and kept thinking, that it would be so cool if the 5 seconds bootup would look and sound like the Lost... "thing" at the beginning. You know, with the Haiku logo flying slowly by you with that quiet eerie sound coming nearer.
Now quickly on-topic. :)
One thing I associate with Haiku is slightly electronic "nature". So, IMO natural sounds like rain, wind, birds&bees with ever so slightly effects/distortions/etc. added would suit perfectly.
I'm sure everyone on and off mailing list will appreciate well done sounds. Just announce your plans there to keep everyone in the loop.
Thanks for taking care of that aspect of the OS, Anar!
Humdinger
--=-=--=-=--=-=--=-=--=-=--=-=--=-=--=-=--=-=--=-=--=--
Deutsche Haiku News @ http://haiku-gazette.blogspot.com
Re: What about sound design?
try this http://ar.share.geocities.com/dr250976/sounds/Rain-wav.tar.gz (its ok)
and this http://utopiavirtual.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_details&gi... (bloody good, tho it is realist , and that maybe wouldn't go with haiku)
Possible Start up
Hey Guys, I am trying my hand at sound design. It's a lot harder then I thought it would be, but I managed to make a possible start up for Haiku. I have rain in the background, but I used a piccolo instead of a Japanese Flute. You can check it out here:
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/haikustartup1.mp3. If anyone needs it in another format, let me know.
I would love to hear any criticism you guys might have. It's a really simple intro, which I think works, but if anyone has any ideas for additions or changes, let me know.
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: Possible Start up
I would love to hear any criticism you guys might have.
Personally I think it sounds a little bit "sad" you might say... I think it's a combination of the rain (which is already a gloomy sort of sound), and the slightly somber notes (they don't sound very upbeat, partially because they're low, long, and drop in pitch after the first two notes.
Honestly, I'm not sure any background noise is a good idea, especially rain.
Anyhow, maybe not the criticism you were looking for exactly, and it's all IMHO of course, as I'm certainly no expert on sound :)
Re: Possible Start up
Okay, I can work with that. Some people in the forum said they wanted it to sound "natural" as in literally nature. I can try to make something a little more up-beat. Possibly move things up an octave and use a lighter rain sound. Do you think it needs any backing instruments?
Re: Possible Start up
There are many sounds from the real world that sound beautiful...but often associate too strongly when used in a working environment.
The risk is that you'd have something that doesn't blend in enough with the rest of the OS. You'd have the user's mind go from "hey, an error showed up" to "hey, a waterfall tells me an error showed up", at a moment when the mindset of the user might not be open to soothing sounds, or in general to sounds that "focus out"...
In other words, it'd become (literally) disturbingly anecdotal.
Also, I think that while Haiku is in itself a Japanese word, one should stay clear from the use of sounds like water droplets, woodblocks, gongs, etc. which would soon turn the OS into an oriental cliché.
Of course you might still start from these kind of sounds when abstracting/distorting them electronically, or as an inspiration before taking place behind your -PC or musical- keyboard.
Re: Possible Start up
There are many sounds from the real world that sound beautiful...but often associate too strongly when used in a working environment.
The risk is that you'd have something that doesn't blend in enough with the rest of the OS. You'd have the user's mind go from "hey, an error showed up" to "hey, a waterfall tells me an error showed up", at a moment when the mindset of the user might not be open to soothing sounds, or in general to sounds that "focus out"...
In other words, it'd become (literally) disturbingly anecdotal.
I definitely see your point and agree, but I seriously doubt anyone would use a waterfall sound or anything particularly soothing as an error message. But that doesn't mean the OS beep needs to be jarring or irritating either. It just needs to get the user's attention and let them know something isn't right (usually something in their own actions.)
Also, I think that while Haiku is in itself a Japanese word, one should stay clear from the use of sounds like water droplets, woodblocks, gongs, etc. which would soon turn the OS into an oriental cliché.
While there is a danger of becoming an oriental cliché, I don't know if it is all that bad having Haiku inspired by that theme in various ways. After all, a lot of the ideas and themes from Eastern philosophy describe what Haiku is about: simple, clean, uncomplicated, zen.
Of course you might still start from these kind of sounds when abstracting/distorting them electronically, or as an inspiration before taking place behind your -PC or musical- keyboard.
Well that is probably more of what I mean anyhow. I wouldn't necessarily want the Haiku start up sound to be a recorded shakuhachi and gongs, but having those sounds from a synth with a little extra flavor wouldn't be so bad.
I just think that if there is not some sort of direction the Haiku sound design could turn into a big bike shed situation. Supposedly Microsoft had a team working for 18 months and involving famous musicians to come up with the Vista sounds. The start-up sound was particularly tricky and they ended up having some kind of committee vote to pick the final sound from a selection of 20. I just think at the moment we don't need that kind of thing slowing down Haiku...
Haiku Start Up Mock Up 2
I listened to what you guys had to say and I made this new start up:
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/haikustartup2.mp3
I made the rain lighter and had it fade for longer. I also changed the instruments, had the last note hold for twice as long and moved the entire thing up an octave. I think it sounds a lot better and I think it is a lot less "gloomy" but that's up to you to decide.
Thanks for the feedback,
Lexen
Re: What about sound design?
Hi, I would suggest to listen to this flash movie intro for inspiration http://www.ninjai.com/chapters/chapter01/ there are a lot of flute sounds. I think singing bird or rocky river would sound more happy than a rain IMO :) Thanks for your efforts!
River Background
I think that having a river in the background would be a good idea. I don't know where I could get that sound effect, but I'm sure I'll think of something. What does everyone think of the notes? Is there anything people like about the start up, or should I come at this from a different direction?
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: River Background
IMHO the fact that you have to fade in & fade out 'continuous' sounds like those of rain, river, waterfall etc. makes them less suitable.
Because of their unclear beginnings and endings they sound too much 'at random' -even when used as a background sound.
Staying in the 'aqua department', for example the sound of a bucket of water emptied on a tiled floor or of a swimmer diving into a pool might be more suitable to work from.
Re: River Background
A few of the extra system sounds on linux get their sounds from http://www.freesound.org/.
On a side note why do all the linux extra system sounds, sound like cheesy soap operas' intro music bar "Borealis" ?
Re: What about sound design?
TBH, I've never been a fan of event sounds in the first place.
I'll admit that a sound whenever an error dialog shows up is somewhat useful, and perhaps if we had a login prompt a sound played for that would be useful (sort of a "hey, i'm ready for your input before i can continue" indicator).
But startup and shutdown sounds just annoy the crap out of me personally anyway. They don't add to the usefulness of the OS at all IMO, and often times play at inappropriate times (like during a company meeting when someone starts up their laptop, etc.)
So, while I know that some people love it when their OS "talks" to them audibly, I'd vote for a good short and simple alert sound first before any other sounds are designed.
:)
Re: What about sound design?
You've got a point there, concerning startup sounds at company meetings...(how about inside libraries ;-)).
Perhaps a very short beep that can't be mistaken for a system-beep is enough; one has to know if the speakers are working (Duracell did a good job with their three tone chime, BTW).
Shutdown sounds seem to carry even less functionality, I think.
And after all silence is very Zen...
Re: What about sound design?
I think Urias has a point, and I definitely would not like for Haiku to have too many sounds by default or to have annoying sounds. It should be very easy to just disable all the sounds. BUT, some people will definitely want to have some sounds, and I think it would provide some polish for Haiku to have a couple decent "sound themes" including a good default one that is set up after an install. For example I think the Ubuntu sounds are good.
Though I too am no musician or expert at sound design, at some point I may try my hand at designing some sounds, as I have been thinking about this for a while.
Re: What about sound design?
Sound themes are a tricky point because some people don't notice (or care) about them and others have very strong opinions about them. Personally, I turn off the Windows UI sounds as part of my post-install settings tweaking. Considering how subjective this topic is, there may not be a good answer. One thing I do know, though, is that the startup sound was something Microsoft did a good job with -- the Vista startup sound does not IMO get annoying even after hearing it repeatedly. I still turn it off along with all the other system sounds, but not because it annoys me.
Be went with only about 3 sounds. System beep and startup were two of them and I forget the third. That would be a good starting point. USB mount/unmount would also be reasonable IMO. Some of the events listed above, however, are poor choices. Any frequent event, such as key down/up or window activation, occur too often to be of any use. Sounds are for giving feedback, but a careful balance must be sought. When it is used appropriately, it can be a nice touch, but when used too much, it is a distraction.
You can find more information on the topic of sound and integration into a GUI at http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~stephen/publications.shtml . Of particular use is #4, "Providing a structured method for integrating non-speech audio into human-computer interfaces."
Sound or No Sound
I can understand where everyone is coming from. Personally, I am more on the side that thinks sound effects would give it a nice polish. I think when people hear sound effects, they think it has to be annoying, but it can be very subtle and give you the mind set that you are using a very professional OS.
The only question that I have for the community is should we have a start up song? Obviously, I think we should because I think it get people excited to use the computer, especially when there is a new release of a beloved OS. If a computer is completely silent, it gives the user the impression that they are just sitting there and if someone doesn't really want to use a computer, they will quickly find something else to do.
On the more cynical side of things, Haiku is currently a very underground OS that has a lot to prove. We don't want to give people any reason to think that Haiku isn't a valid OS. If we didn't have a background image, for example, it might speed things up a little bit, but it would make people think they are using an old OS, which Haiku is exactly the opposite. Sounds may annoy some, but they can really make using a computer more fun. As sound designers, we have the job of making sound effects that will make it fun to use a computer but also not annoy the hard core crowd. If we know what others have done wrong, we are one step closer to finding out what's right. What specific sound effects do we want to avoid?
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: What about sound design?
I'm not a big fan of intro sounds or sounds period. (I have No Sounds as my profile.)
But I think birds chirping would be a good background noise while the computer is loading. Chirping birds seem to give a sense of beginning, etc. and kind of fit in with a "nature" theme that was mentioned earlier.
Re: What about sound design?
The reason I think a startup sound would be a good idea is that it shows that Haiku has correctly detected my sound card on the first boot. It also gives a little indication that the system has finished loading and is ready for use. I think it should be short, simple and unobtrusive though to fit with the general Haiku philosophy.
As for other sounds, we obviously need an error beep of some sort and USB mount/unmount is also a good idea. Don't think much else is needed.
Simon
Re: What about sound design?
I agree and have a couple others. A new e-mail sound wouldn't happen enough to be annoying. A startup sound, provided that it is unobtrusive, could be a decent possibility.
I took some notes on the thesis I recommended above and here they are.
Sound at the interface level:
Spatial location and volume are both very low resolution
Using speech is more error-prone (and noise polluting) than non-speech
Loudness contributes to the level of annoyance
Sounds are traditionally used to indicate something happening, but not specifically what.
One problem is the association of sounds with actions events that have no correlation with the sound they are paired with, i.e. natural sounds taken out of the context of their natural environment. Another problem is memorizing sounds that go with actions.
Sound effects can be applied to a sound to convey information. Examples: thickening a pitch by applying chorus or a pitch shift so that several pitches play simultaneously, muffling or thinning by applying a low- or high-pass filter to convey distance, frequency-specific phase distortion to "excite" the sound, using echo and/or reverb to convey distance.
Use of sound needs an integrative approach i.e. top-down.
There is a direct proportion of pitch to perceived urgency.
Dissonance is more urgent of a request than consonance.
Intensity should be at least 10dB above threshold and no more than 20dB over.
Possible uses:
Relating info that is hidden. This could be info that is hard to access (file size / creation date on a Mac), not available (e.g . because of lack of screen space), visual clutter, info that is outside the area of visual focus of an app, or because it is a mode.
Timbre is a great differentiator of sounds, but only if they are not just subtle variations on the same timbre (overdriven guitar vs distortion guitar).
--------------------
My own observations:
--------------------
Sounds seem to be good at signifying completion events, such as the end of preheating of an oven or a microwave finishing its cook cycle.
Repetition of a note can be used to increase urgency.
"Sonifying" an interface's widgets can increase usability, but at the expense of elegance and beauty. It can reduce a system to a chattering cacophony of beeps and musical notes.
A Plain Startup
Hey guys, sorry I haven't posted anything in a while. I tried to get a better background for the startup, but I wasn't very successful at recording some. Anyway, I thought if you guys have any good backgrounds, or would prefer not to have one, here is the plain startup.
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/haikustartup2-1_-_plain.mp3
Does anyone else have any actual files that they could contribute to the project?
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: A Plain Startup
Hi,
I have cut out some peaces from "Jean Pierre Rampal - Japanese Melodies For Flute And harp" album. Some mockups came out. Don't know about licensing rules here. What do you think about these?
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start2.mp3
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start3.mp3
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start4.mp3
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start5.mp3
- mipi
Re: A Plain Startup
Hey man, I really appreciate the contribution, but if someone else made it we can't use it. If you have a harp or a flute and you wanted to record something, we could use that, but they do have a copyright.
Re: A Plain Startup
We actually could technically use it if we were granted a license to do so... but I'm not sure how likely that would be, and someone would have to actually ask ;)
Re: A Plain Startup
I have cut out some peaces from "Jean Pierre Rampal - Japanese Melodies For Flute And harp" album. Some mockups came out. Don't know about licensing rules here. What do you think about these?
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start2.mp3
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start3.mp3
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start4.mp3
http://local.elgsis.lt/files/mipi/mipi-haiku-start5.mp3
I like these a lot and generally think this is the kind of sound I was thinking of for the Haiku start-up. While I agree we probably cannot use these without permission, I would think that recreating them with a synthesizer would be OK. We just need an idea of the notes (which I suppose the more musically gifted among us could determine from the mp3 files.) Or maybe someone could just find a Japanese arrangement book. Heck there might be some free arrangements online, though a quick Google search did not show me much.
But in general I think some combination of Japanese flute and harp could be a great Haiku start up sound. Though maybe adding in some more "techno" flavor might be cool too, which might just be accomplished by using synthesized Japanese flute and harp.
Jean Pierre Rampal - Japanese Melodies For Flute And harp
I have recently started using a program called LMMS and with it I could re-create one of the songs note for note, but even if it wasn't illegal, I still find it unethical. I don't want to be steeling another persons work, I would much rather go through the effort of making something of our own.
What file specifically do you guys like? I could make a NEW one with a similar feel to it. The general feel I am getting is a relatively simple flute with the harp using a lot of notes in the background. If I get the time, I could mess with that a little and show you guys what I came up with.
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: Jean Pierre Rampal - Japanese Melodies For Flute And harp
It would be great if you could make something like this or even better. Personally I like them as startup sound in such order:
Re: Jean Pierre Rampal - Japanese Melodies For Flute And harp
1+ for something like mipi-haiku-start2.mp3 as startup.
& 1+ for something like mipi-haiku-start5.mp3 as unmount USB.
and of course a reversal for mount USB is needed.
Re: Jean Pierre Rampal - Japanese Melodies For Flute And harp
1+ for something like mipi-haiku-start5.mp3 as unmount USB
IMO the first part of this peace could be USB mount and the second part unmount. Only the tempo should be faster.
USB Mount and Unmount
Hey Guys, I have been really busy, so I haven't been able to work on the start up noise, but I did make sounds for USB Mount and Unmount.
www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbmount0-1.mp3
www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbunmount0-1.mp3
These are just my first drafts, so if you would like them re-made one way or another just let me know. They are really simple, just three notes played with a clav. The mount sound increases in pitch, while the unmount decreases in pitch, but they both use the same notes. I think they are very subtle and fit with the over all theme. I also encoded them to be very small, I'm not sure if you can use mp3's in haiku, but if you can't I can also get them in wav's, ogg's or anything else you want.
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: USB Mount and Unmount
Hi, I just let the openbeos ML know of your draft.
http://www.freelists.org/archives/openbeos/10-2008/msg00108.html
Maurice asks if you could upload it again using Ogg Vorbis. As Ogg Vorbis does not give them on any mp3 related issues.
Re: USB Mount and Unmount
I like them! Nice and minimalist. Thanks for the contribution!
Re: USB Mount and Unmount
Thanks guys. I like constructive criticism, but compliments sure feel nice once in a while. I will get them converted to ogg as soon as I can. Can we use ogg? Or do I have to use wav.
Thanks agian,
Lexen
Re: What about sound design?
Hi guys,
just a mockup made with Sequitur
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/mushaspot/pub/haiku-startup.mid
Some .Wavs and Some Comments on the Start Up
Here are some files in the wav format. I made some stereo versions of the audio. I know we want to keep things minimalistic, but the file size is smaller and it makes the whole thing sound better. The only reason not to choose stereo would be if you didn't like the way it turned out.
Some audio players can cut the ends off for some reason. It should have three notes and not cut off the last one.
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbmount.wav (14.4 KB)
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbmountstereo.wav (7.2 KB)
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbunmount.wav (15.9 KB)
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbunmountstereo.wav (7.9 KB)
to zuMikkebe:
I think it sounds okay, but it sounds really digital. Is there any way we can make it sound more real? I use a program called LMMS, if you can send me the score I can re-create it and we can see how it sounds.
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: Some .Wavs and Some Comments on the Start Up
With .mid - the digital-ness of the sound is pretty much entirely dependent on your MIDI playback synth and instruments.
Mid
That's true, so why limit ourselves to midi? If it was made with another program, or possibly with actual instruments, it would sound a lot better.
I'm not insulting him, I know it's just a mock-up, but I am suggesting how to move it past a mock-up.
Thanks,
Lexen
Re: Some .Wavs and Some Comments on the Start Up
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbmount.wav (14.4 KB)
http://www.unseenirony.com/misc/usbmountstereo.wav (7.2 KB)
Sounds nice! Maybe two notes would be more minimalist than three? :)
Re: Mid
Yes, it's a mockup, a draft, and made it with a composer I can use, saved into a format that can be read, edited and imported by a lot of applications (LMMS too), just a way to keep the idea open and shareable with a wide audience, rendering
Now follows some renderings made with a standard SoundFont (the sf2pack is named Chromium):
http://xoomer.alice.it/mushaspot/pub/startup-fantasy.aiff
http://xoomer.alice.it/mushaspot/pub/startup-harp.aiff
Cya people
Start Up
I would say I like harp more then I like fantasy, but I think they are both too startling. If you could make something a little more laid back, I think it would sound a lot better.
Thanks for the contribution,
Lexen
Re: Start Up
I made some changes, don't know if I caught what you said.
The harp it's been mixed with pads(new age+warm) && some freeverb, but it still missing the "depth" I'm pursuing.
A sample here
http://xoomer.alice.it/mushaspot/pub/haiku-startup-mix.aiff
Regards,
zuMi
Re: Start Up
I think it's the best one that you have made yet, but it sounds a little twangy and a little to fast for a start up. Could you slow the tempo down?
Re: Start Up
just a quick draft, slowdown about -20%, including pitch
http://xoomer.alice.it/mushaspot/pub/haiku-startup-mix2.wav
And I have emphasized the vibrating sound because I like the original BeStartup.wav, I could try to reduce the reverb...
[edit]
the previous was made at work with unappropriated tools, this should sound better:
http://xoomer.alice.it/mushaspot/pub/haiku-startup-mix3.aiff
Re: Start Up
I absolutely love startup mix three. Absolutely love it.
The USB sounds are very nice as well.
Keep up the great work!
Generic Beep
Just want to get your guys opinion on this beep sound that I found. Its called beep_1.mp3 and you can hear it here:
http://simplythebest.net/sounds/MP3/sound_effects_MP3/miscellaneous_mp3....
Its public domain too. :)